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	<title>Comments on: The Descent Into Unbelief, Part III</title>
	<atom:link href="http://principleddiscovery.com/2006/07/09/the-descent-into-unbelief-part-iii/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://principleddiscovery.com/2006/07/09/the-descent-into-unbelief-part-iii/</link>
	<description>If the foundations be destroyed, what shall the righteous do? --Psalm 11:3</description>
	<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jan 2009 07:06:46 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Dana</title>
		<link>http://principleddiscovery.com/2006/07/09/the-descent-into-unbelief-part-iii/#comment-412</link>
		<dc:creator>Dana</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Jul 2006 04:44:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://principleddiscovery.com/?p=194#comment-412</guid>
		<description>Thanks, Tim's Mom.  I agree.  Our intentions aren't really as important as we make them out to be, I think.  That may seem harsh, but I also believe that our intentions aren't always all that good, either.  We are basicaally sinful so I think it probably a very nice thing for us that God does not judge us by our actions or our intentions but by our faith in His son, and thus by His heart and actions.  It is the same for our children, and the more we are able to show that, the more we can "win" them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Tim&#8217;s Mom.  I agree.  Our intentions aren&#8217;t really as important as we make them out to be, I think.  That may seem harsh, but I also believe that our intentions aren&#8217;t always all that good, either.  We are basicaally sinful so I think it probably a very nice thing for us that God does not judge us by our actions or our intentions but by our faith in His son, and thus by His heart and actions.  It is the same for our children, and the more we are able to show that, the more we can &#8220;win&#8221; them.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim's Mom</title>
		<link>http://principleddiscovery.com/2006/07/09/the-descent-into-unbelief-part-iii/#comment-411</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim's Mom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Jul 2006 19:46:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://principleddiscovery.com/?p=194#comment-411</guid>
		<description>"What if I, with very good intentions, or even in my basic sinful nature, over look an area that I just can't recognize as being important, and then have my children turn from the faith because of my own blindness? Does my heart intention mean anything? Does my own unintentioned blindness mean anything?"&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Charlotte Mason talked about this. She said that there are Divine Laws that have to be followed, whether you're a Christian or not. Even a faithful, God-loving person can't expect to defy the law of gravity with impunity. She said that parents were responsible to find out the laws of human nature so they'd be properly able to train up their children. Parental errors, even when well-intentioned, do have very real repurcussions. In her first book, Home Education, she explained that love isn't enough; mothers owe their children a THINKING love. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;It seems to me that some parents in the Victorian era were evading controversial issues instead of learning how to deal with them. They meant well, they only wanted to shield their children from evil, but it cost those children their very faith in some cases when they came face to face with ideas and had no idea how to reason them through. And parents were also sending their children away to boarding schools. It's hard to parent a child who isn't even there.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;What if I, with very good intentions, or even in my basic sinful nature, over look an area that I just can&#8217;t recognize as being important, and then have my children turn from the faith because of my own blindness? Does my heart intention mean anything? Does my own unintentioned blindness mean anything?&#8221;</p>
<p>Charlotte Mason talked about this. She said that there are Divine Laws that have to be followed, whether you&#8217;re a Christian or not. Even a faithful, God-loving person can&#8217;t expect to defy the law of gravity with impunity. She said that parents were responsible to find out the laws of human nature so they&#8217;d be properly able to train up their children. Parental errors, even when well-intentioned, do have very real repurcussions. In her first book, Home Education, she explained that love isn&#8217;t enough; mothers owe their children a THINKING love. </p>
<p>It seems to me that some parents in the Victorian era were evading controversial issues instead of learning how to deal with them. They meant well, they only wanted to shield their children from evil, but it cost those children their very faith in some cases when they came face to face with ideas and had no idea how to reason them through. And parents were also sending their children away to boarding schools. It&#8217;s hard to parent a child who isn&#8217;t even there.</p>
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		<title>By: Dana</title>
		<link>http://principleddiscovery.com/2006/07/09/the-descent-into-unbelief-part-iii/#comment-410</link>
		<dc:creator>Dana</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Jul 2006 04:23:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://principleddiscovery.com/?p=194#comment-410</guid>
		<description>Thanks, Kate, and you can ramble on all you want.  This is my personal philosophy and may only be worth the paper it isn't even printed on...but I think that these not-so-Christian authors, being raised in Christian homes, were still somewhat restrained with some semblance of a Christian conscience.  Hence they weren't willing to challenge the status quo o much as our authors today.  To some extent, it was the culture they were in, but I think they were still somewhat restrained by their upbringing and they were not yet ready to take their ideas to their natural conclusion.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Unlike Nietzsche.  He was raised in a Christian home and studied Theology at the University of Bonn.  But he worked in the Franco-Prussian War and the horrors of what he saw there lead him to the conclusion that any God who allowed this was not God.  Perhaps it was due to the syphillis and the growing dementia, but he did seem capable of taking his ideas to their logical and natural conclusions, proclaiming God to be dead and hinting at the collapse of our social structures in the wake of his death.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Thanks for the link...I'll check it out in a bit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Kate, and you can ramble on all you want.  This is my personal philosophy and may only be worth the paper it isn&#8217;t even printed on&#8230;but I think that these not-so-Christian authors, being raised in Christian homes, were still somewhat restrained with some semblance of a Christian conscience.  Hence they weren&#8217;t willing to challenge the status quo o much as our authors today.  To some extent, it was the culture they were in, but I think they were still somewhat restrained by their upbringing and they were not yet ready to take their ideas to their natural conclusion.</p>
<p>Unlike Nietzsche.  He was raised in a Christian home and studied Theology at the University of Bonn.  But he worked in the Franco-Prussian War and the horrors of what he saw there lead him to the conclusion that any God who allowed this was not God.  Perhaps it was due to the syphillis and the growing dementia, but he did seem capable of taking his ideas to their logical and natural conclusions, proclaiming God to be dead and hinting at the collapse of our social structures in the wake of his death.</p>
<p>Thanks for the link&#8230;I&#8217;ll check it out in a bit.</p>
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		<title>By: Under the Sky</title>
		<link>http://principleddiscovery.com/2006/07/09/the-descent-into-unbelief-part-iii/#comment-409</link>
		<dc:creator>Under the Sky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Jul 2006 02:50:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://principleddiscovery.com/?p=194#comment-409</guid>
		<description>You know she was not the only great writer from that time period who was off-course so to speak. I just read about Charles Dickens. He left his wife and multiple children for a mistress. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Dickens is a fairly decent source for his life story. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;It is *so* hard for me to imagine because his work, in some respects, is so beautifully Christian and the giving of one's self in books like A Tale of Two Cities is really remarkable (one of the best books ever written in my opinion once you get through the somewhat confusing first part). I was honestly surprised to read of his life choices after reading his work. I am not saying all his books are this way, but still, I think you understand my point. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;There are actually (surprisingly to me) quite a few authors of that time that made very questionable moral choices yet they produced books we hail today as moral or at least clean. I suppose it could be said they wrote for their audience to some degree because they didn't seem to write the way they were living. George Eliot certainly did pay to some degree at the time for her choice to live with a married man in Victorian England (and much of her family shunned her because of it too).&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;The more I read about some of my favorite authors the sader it makes me! I almost don't want to know because it reveals they were not what they wrote about. There are some amazing moral characters in some of the books from that time that I have read and some very strong examples of making right choices for Christian reasons. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;http://homeschoolblogger.com/UndertheSky/154913/ is my blog post about the books I have read and wish to read that were written during this time. It is fascinating to read from one time period because there was so much of the culture that makes its way into books written then. For example, there were some very strongly religious people in England at this time and Charlotte Mary Yonge is one of them. The Daisy Chain is her work and it was a fascinating look into some of the religious views as well as cultural views of the time. Beautiful Feet reproduced it and they sell it from their site. I highly recommend it if you are really interested in this subject. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;It is hard to imagine attending a church that was pastored by someone who had no faith and having no other choices. I am thankful that we do have more today.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Warmly,&lt;br/&gt;Kate&lt;br/&gt;(Sorry to ramble on so!)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You know she was not the only great writer from that time period who was off-course so to speak. I just read about Charles Dickens. He left his wife and multiple children for a mistress. <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Dickens" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Dickens</a> is a fairly decent source for his life story. </p>
<p>It is *so* hard for me to imagine because his work, in some respects, is so beautifully Christian and the giving of one&#8217;s self in books like A Tale of Two Cities is really remarkable (one of the best books ever written in my opinion once you get through the somewhat confusing first part). I was honestly surprised to read of his life choices after reading his work. I am not saying all his books are this way, but still, I think you understand my point. </p>
<p>There are actually (surprisingly to me) quite a few authors of that time that made very questionable moral choices yet they produced books we hail today as moral or at least clean. I suppose it could be said they wrote for their audience to some degree because they didn&#8217;t seem to write the way they were living. George Eliot certainly did pay to some degree at the time for her choice to live with a married man in Victorian England (and much of her family shunned her because of it too).</p>
<p>The more I read about some of my favorite authors the sader it makes me! I almost don&#8217;t want to know because it reveals they were not what they wrote about. There are some amazing moral characters in some of the books from that time that I have read and some very strong examples of making right choices for Christian reasons. </p>
<p><a href="http://homeschoolblogger.com/UndertheSky/154913/" rel="nofollow">http://homeschoolblogger.com/UndertheSky/154913/</a> is my blog post about the books I have read and wish to read that were written during this time. It is fascinating to read from one time period because there was so much of the culture that makes its way into books written then. For example, there were some very strongly religious people in England at this time and Charlotte Mary Yonge is one of them. The Daisy Chain is her work and it was a fascinating look into some of the religious views as well as cultural views of the time. Beautiful Feet reproduced it and they sell it from their site. I highly recommend it if you are really interested in this subject. </p>
<p>It is hard to imagine attending a church that was pastored by someone who had no faith and having no other choices. I am thankful that we do have more today.</p>
<p>Warmly,<br />Kate<br />(Sorry to ramble on so!)</p>
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		<title>By: Dana</title>
		<link>http://principleddiscovery.com/2006/07/09/the-descent-into-unbelief-part-iii/#comment-408</link>
		<dc:creator>Dana</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Jul 2006 00:39:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://principleddiscovery.com/?p=194#comment-408</guid>
		<description>Thank you, Kate. I'm hoping to add more on George Eliot tonight and please feel free to add anything you've learned from your studies.  This section doesn't go into great detail about her, but it is kind of depressing that she cast aside her faith after reading a book that reportedly contains only weak argumentation agains the faith.  She seems like someone of enough talent to have been able to see through something like that, but as you pointed out, if the faith wasn't real, there wasn't much hope.  It sounded as if her loss of faith was a great loss to her personally and that she struggled with it greatly.  Kind of sad.  But greater persecution than a few ideas await the faithful followers of Christ, and we must be prepared, "as wise as serpents and as gentle as doves."</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you, Kate. I&#8217;m hoping to add more on George Eliot tonight and please feel free to add anything you&#8217;ve learned from your studies.  This section doesn&#8217;t go into great detail about her, but it is kind of depressing that she cast aside her faith after reading a book that reportedly contains only weak argumentation agains the faith.  She seems like someone of enough talent to have been able to see through something like that, but as you pointed out, if the faith wasn&#8217;t real, there wasn&#8217;t much hope.  It sounded as if her loss of faith was a great loss to her personally and that she struggled with it greatly.  Kind of sad.  But greater persecution than a few ideas await the faithful followers of Christ, and we must be prepared, &#8220;as wise as serpents and as gentle as doves.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Under the Sky</title>
		<link>http://principleddiscovery.com/2006/07/09/the-descent-into-unbelief-part-iii/#comment-407</link>
		<dc:creator>Under the Sky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Jul 2006 00:03:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://principleddiscovery.com/?p=194#comment-407</guid>
		<description>This post is very interesting. I have read many of George Eliot's works and recently looked into her life. I was sorely disappointed with what I found. It is hard to imagine such a radical change from what seemed like a vibrant faith. It could not have been though if her later life was the result. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;The more I read of this time period the more the reality of vicar as just another "job" to choose if you were a second son becomes clear. The clergy was a profession the same as a soldier or merchant. This prevented more than one generation from knowing what was really true. They may have lived in the more simple or "moral" time in our minds, but in reality, much of the restraint they had was based upon societal pressure and not true belief in the dangers of immorality. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;The veil of societal pressure has long since been torn down in our day and in some ways (sadly) it is easier to show our children the truth of an immoral life. It is all around us. Destroyed families and lives are everywhere and the church is not immune. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;As Christian parents it is up to us to show a true faith, an honest walk, and to pray for our children. I believe it is truly the Holy Spirit that does the work of regeneration in our children's hearts. We are, however, called to live and do all for the glory of God. If we live with the joy of the Lord as our strength, it is much more likely our children will not seek their own form of "joy" elsewhere. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;May God make it so in His children who strive to be faithful.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Warmly,&lt;br/&gt;Kate</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This post is very interesting. I have read many of George Eliot&#8217;s works and recently looked into her life. I was sorely disappointed with what I found. It is hard to imagine such a radical change from what seemed like a vibrant faith. It could not have been though if her later life was the result. </p>
<p>The more I read of this time period the more the reality of vicar as just another &#8220;job&#8221; to choose if you were a second son becomes clear. The clergy was a profession the same as a soldier or merchant. This prevented more than one generation from knowing what was really true. They may have lived in the more simple or &#8220;moral&#8221; time in our minds, but in reality, much of the restraint they had was based upon societal pressure and not true belief in the dangers of immorality. </p>
<p>The veil of societal pressure has long since been torn down in our day and in some ways (sadly) it is easier to show our children the truth of an immoral life. It is all around us. Destroyed families and lives are everywhere and the church is not immune. </p>
<p>As Christian parents it is up to us to show a true faith, an honest walk, and to pray for our children. I believe it is truly the Holy Spirit that does the work of regeneration in our children&#8217;s hearts. We are, however, called to live and do all for the glory of God. If we live with the joy of the Lord as our strength, it is much more likely our children will not seek their own form of &#8220;joy&#8221; elsewhere. </p>
<p>May God make it so in His children who strive to be faithful.</p>
<p>Warmly,<br />Kate</p>
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		<title>By: Dana</title>
		<link>http://principleddiscovery.com/2006/07/09/the-descent-into-unbelief-part-iii/#comment-406</link>
		<dc:creator>Dana</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Jul 2006 14:12:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://principleddiscovery.com/?p=194#comment-406</guid>
		<description>Thank you, Ross, and you are correct.    I actually &lt;a HTTP://GOTTSEGNET.BLOGSPOT.COM/2006/04/SUFFER-LITTLE-CHILDREN-TO-COME-UNTO-ME.HTML HREF+ HREF="" REL="nofollow"&gt;wrote about Proverbs 22&lt;/a&gt; a while back as part of my series on motivation.  It lines out my parenting philosophy a little better.  And the scripture study linked near the end is kind of interesting, especially for those who use this verse to justify training their children according to their own wills using this verse.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you, Ross, and you are correct.    I actually <a HTTP://GOTTSEGNET.BLOGSPOT.COM/2006/04/SUFFER-LITTLE-CHILDREN-TO-COME-UNTO-ME.HTML HREF+ HREF="" REL="nofollow">wrote about Proverbs 22</a> a while back as part of my series on motivation.  It lines out my parenting philosophy a little better.  And the scripture study linked near the end is kind of interesting, especially for those who use this verse to justify training their children according to their own wills using this verse.</p>
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		<title>By: Ross</title>
		<link>http://principleddiscovery.com/2006/07/09/the-descent-into-unbelief-part-iii/#comment-405</link>
		<dc:creator>Ross</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Jul 2006 11:55:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://principleddiscovery.com/?p=194#comment-405</guid>
		<description>Dana, thank you for that verse.. &lt;i&gt;We can't save our children, no matter how faithful we are&lt;/i&gt;. To me, that's the lesson of the Victorian age. While they were doing remarkable works for the Kingdom, many times their children were left with nothing but The Law and a Nanny, and that oppression burned great scars in their souls ("Daddy loves the church people more than me"). It reminds me of a Dobson line... "rules without relationships equals rebellion". It also flies in the face of &lt;a HREF="http://bible.cc/proverbs/22-6.htm" REL="nofollow"&gt;Proverbs 22.6&lt;/a&gt;: &lt;i&gt;Train up a child &lt;b&gt;in the way he should go&lt;/b&gt;, And even when he is old he will not depart from it.&lt;/i&gt;  We love to turn that into "&lt;i&gt;Train up a child in the way I want him to go...&lt;/i&gt;" A major part of raising children is finding out who God made them to be.. What makes them tick? Where are their gifts?&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;The Home School is the ideal place to learn who your child is and to raise them for God's service, even if that service looks different than what you want for them. There are no recipes or formulas that will produce the perfect child... God wants us to pick up our cross daily and look to Jesus as our teacher. When children see that humility in us, then they become teachable "in the Lord".</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dana, thank you for that verse.. <i>We can&#8217;t save our children, no matter how faithful we are</i>. To me, that&#8217;s the lesson of the Victorian age. While they were doing remarkable works for the Kingdom, many times their children were left with nothing but The Law and a Nanny, and that oppression burned great scars in their souls (&#8221;Daddy loves the church people more than me&#8221;). It reminds me of a Dobson line&#8230; &#8220;rules without relationships equals rebellion&#8221;. It also flies in the face of <a HREF="http://bible.cc/proverbs/22-6.htm" REL="nofollow">Proverbs 22.6</a>: <i>Train up a child <b>in the way he should go</b>, And even when he is old he will not depart from it.</i>  We love to turn that into &#8220;<i>Train up a child in the way I want him to go&#8230;</i>&#8221; A major part of raising children is finding out who God made them to be.. What makes them tick? Where are their gifts?</p>
<p>The Home School is the ideal place to learn who your child is and to raise them for God&#8217;s service, even if that service looks different than what you want for them. There are no recipes or formulas that will produce the perfect child&#8230; God wants us to pick up our cross daily and look to Jesus as our teacher. When children see that humility in us, then they become teachable &#8220;in the Lord&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Dana</title>
		<link>http://principleddiscovery.com/2006/07/09/the-descent-into-unbelief-part-iii/#comment-404</link>
		<dc:creator>Dana</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Jul 2006 02:57:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://principleddiscovery.com/?p=194#comment-404</guid>
		<description>" Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost..."  Titus 3:5&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;It is my understanding that we do our best to instruct our children in the Lord.  We faithfully educate them and bring them up, teaching them the Word of God diligently and without ceasing.  And while we protect them and shelter them to some degree, we need to make sure that we are laying a solid foundation, not just indoctrinating them.  They need to be taught to reason...the story of George Eliot is kind of depressing.  She walked away from the faith when exposed to anti-Christian materials that are weak and have since been soundly refuted.  Had her faith been a foundation rather than a covering, she would have been able to see the errors for herself.  &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Of course, there are no guarantees.  What the Lord has planned for each of our children may go against our own desires.  Even in the best conditions, some walk away...many return later.  Some do not.  But I believe we must place our faith in the Lord rather than in our ability to teach them.  We will always fall short, but He is faithful to bring about His will.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8221; Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost&#8230;&#8221;  Titus 3:5</p>
<p>It is my understanding that we do our best to instruct our children in the Lord.  We faithfully educate them and bring them up, teaching them the Word of God diligently and without ceasing.  And while we protect them and shelter them to some degree, we need to make sure that we are laying a solid foundation, not just indoctrinating them.  They need to be taught to reason&#8230;the story of George Eliot is kind of depressing.  She walked away from the faith when exposed to anti-Christian materials that are weak and have since been soundly refuted.  Had her faith been a foundation rather than a covering, she would have been able to see the errors for herself.  </p>
<p>Of course, there are no guarantees.  What the Lord has planned for each of our children may go against our own desires.  Even in the best conditions, some walk away&#8230;many return later.  Some do not.  But I believe we must place our faith in the Lord rather than in our ability to teach them.  We will always fall short, but He is faithful to bring about His will.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://principleddiscovery.com/2006/07/09/the-descent-into-unbelief-part-iii/#comment-403</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Jul 2006 02:44:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://principleddiscovery.com/?p=194#comment-403</guid>
		<description>I have been thinking about the subject of our following generations following in our spiritual paths.  And I do get concerned-Here I am investing greatly into their spiritual well being and then to have them turn away would be terrible. I know that God has promised His blessing to the Generations, but at what point is that promise guaranteed?  What if I, with very good intentions, or even in my basic sinful nature, over look an area that I just can't recognize as being important, and then have my children turn from the faith because of my own blindness? Does my heart intention mean anything?  Does my own unintentioned blindness mean anything?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have been thinking about the subject of our following generations following in our spiritual paths.  And I do get concerned-Here I am investing greatly into their spiritual well being and then to have them turn away would be terrible. I know that God has promised His blessing to the Generations, but at what point is that promise guaranteed?  What if I, with very good intentions, or even in my basic sinful nature, over look an area that I just can&#8217;t recognize as being important, and then have my children turn from the faith because of my own blindness? Does my heart intention mean anything?  Does my own unintentioned blindness mean anything?</p>
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