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	<title>Comments on: Illiberal Homeschooling: Constitutional Constraints on Homeschooling</title>
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	<link>http://principleddiscovery.com/2007/06/08/illiberal-homeschooling-constitutional-constraints-on-homeschooling/</link>
	<description>If the foundations be destroyed, what shall the righteous do? --Psalm 11:3</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 05 Dec 2008 08:07:23 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: scatty</title>
		<link>http://principleddiscovery.com/2007/06/08/illiberal-homeschooling-constitutional-constraints-on-homeschooling/#comment-1589</link>
		<dc:creator>scatty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Jun 2007 05:41:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://principleddiscovery.com/?p=497#comment-1589</guid>
		<description>In South Africa, homeschooling parents are compelled by law to register. However, the requirements are very stiff, among others requiring homeschoolers to adhere to the state curriculum. In the education law, the education authority has to make sure that all obstacles to registration are removed before they can prosecute a family. As the requirements of the education authorities for registered families present a huge stumbling block, this process is regarded by South African homeschooling families as illegal and most families don't register with the authorities.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In South Africa, homeschooling parents are compelled by law to register. However, the requirements are very stiff, among others requiring homeschoolers to adhere to the state curriculum. In the education law, the education authority has to make sure that all obstacles to registration are removed before they can prosecute a family. As the requirements of the education authorities for registered families present a huge stumbling block, this process is regarded by South African homeschooling families as illegal and most families don&#8217;t register with the authorities.</p>
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		<title>By: Crimson Wife</title>
		<link>http://principleddiscovery.com/2007/06/08/illiberal-homeschooling-constitutional-constraints-on-homeschooling/#comment-1588</link>
		<dc:creator>Crimson Wife</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Jun 2007 05:21:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://principleddiscovery.com/?p=497#comment-1588</guid>
		<description>I've just skimmed the article &#038; will read it in-depth later. What I'd like to ask Prof. Yuracko is where in the Constitution does it say that the government has the authority to regulate its citizens' thoughts? That's really what she's advocating! &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;The First Amendment specifically protects the freedom of speech and also the freedom of worship. However much she may disagree with a family holding a strict patriarchal view of Christianity, the government has no right to interfere in their beliefs. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I found the whole discussion of abortion in the paper to be odd. It didn't seem to have any relevance except in revealing the political bias of the author!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve just skimmed the article &#038; will read it in-depth later. What I&#8217;d like to ask Prof. Yuracko is where in the Constitution does it say that the government has the authority to regulate its citizens&#8217; thoughts? That&#8217;s really what she&#8217;s advocating! </p>
<p>The First Amendment specifically protects the freedom of speech and also the freedom of worship. However much she may disagree with a family holding a strict patriarchal view of Christianity, the government has no right to interfere in their beliefs. </p>
<p>I found the whole discussion of abortion in the paper to be odd. It didn&#8217;t seem to have any relevance except in revealing the political bias of the author!</p>
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		<title>By: Susan</title>
		<link>http://principleddiscovery.com/2007/06/08/illiberal-homeschooling-constitutional-constraints-on-homeschooling/#comment-1587</link>
		<dc:creator>Susan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Jun 2007 21:33:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://principleddiscovery.com/?p=497#comment-1587</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;I am not saying that parents have the right to not educate their child, but some minimal standard of due process should be necessary to bring the state into my home to oversee what I am doing.&lt;/i&gt;&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Compelling interest?  Whatever that could mean in this day and age in a court of law.  &lt;br/&gt;Just as an example, Wikipedia has this entry concerning the 1st Amendment:  &lt;i&gt;In Wisconsin v. Yoder (1972), the Court ruled that a law that "unduly burdens the practice of religion" without a compelling interest, even though it might be "neutral on its face," would be unconstitutional. &lt;/i&gt;&lt;br/&gt;If families are unduly burdened jumping through hoops that "public actors" (government;as I understand the terminology used in this paper), then their hooks won't hold in court.  Theoretically, of course.  &lt;br/&gt;Sorry to catch this so late.  Glad you wrote something up.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>I am not saying that parents have the right to not educate their child, but some minimal standard of due process should be necessary to bring the state into my home to oversee what I am doing.</i></p>
<p>Compelling interest?  Whatever that could mean in this day and age in a court of law.  <br />Just as an example, Wikipedia has this entry concerning the 1st Amendment:  <i>In Wisconsin v. Yoder (1972), the Court ruled that a law that &#8220;unduly burdens the practice of religion&#8221; without a compelling interest, even though it might be &#8220;neutral on its face,&#8221; would be unconstitutional. </i><br />If families are unduly burdened jumping through hoops that &#8220;public actors&#8221; (government;as I understand the terminology used in this paper), then their hooks won&#8217;t hold in court.  Theoretically, of course.  <br />Sorry to catch this so late.  Glad you wrote something up.</p>
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		<title>By: Dana</title>
		<link>http://principleddiscovery.com/2007/06/08/illiberal-homeschooling-constitutional-constraints-on-homeschooling/#comment-1586</link>
		<dc:creator>Dana</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Jun 2007 01:23:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://principleddiscovery.com/?p=497#comment-1586</guid>
		<description>Marcy,&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Thanks for stopping by!  I appreciate your comments and liked what I saw of your blog!  It was just a quick peek, but I'll be back next week after the insanity of this article I'm working on is through!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Marcy,</p>
<p>Thanks for stopping by!  I appreciate your comments and liked what I saw of your blog!  It was just a quick peek, but I&#8217;ll be back next week after the insanity of this article I&#8217;m working on is through!</p>
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		<title>By: Dana</title>
		<link>http://principleddiscovery.com/2007/06/08/illiberal-homeschooling-constitutional-constraints-on-homeschooling/#comment-1585</link>
		<dc:creator>Dana</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Jun 2007 01:21:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://principleddiscovery.com/?p=497#comment-1585</guid>
		<description>Scatty,&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Her perceptions seem based in stereotypes more than anything.  I know people like that exist...but have we shut down the public schools for their proven failure to consistently deliver a basic education?  Newark, NJ is currently graduating 30% of its students...at a cost of $1.3 million per student if you count the money spent on dropouts as wasted!&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;As to the rest...laws exist in most states which allow a family to be reported.  Is that common?  No, but neither are these extreme cases.  And what happens when the state fails children?  Nothing.  Well, actually we throw more money at it and extend the hours students are forced to sit in a situation that doesn't work, take away recess, stop letting them talk at lunch and pile on more homework.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Scatty,</p>
<p>Her perceptions seem based in stereotypes more than anything.  I know people like that exist&#8230;but have we shut down the public schools for their proven failure to consistently deliver a basic education?  Newark, NJ is currently graduating 30% of its students&#8230;at a cost of $1.3 million per student if you count the money spent on dropouts as wasted!</p>
<p>As to the rest&#8230;laws exist in most states which allow a family to be reported.  Is that common?  No, but neither are these extreme cases.  And what happens when the state fails children?  Nothing.  Well, actually we throw more money at it and extend the hours students are forced to sit in a situation that doesn&#8217;t work, take away recess, stop letting them talk at lunch and pile on more homework.</p>
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		<title>By: Marcy Muser</title>
		<link>http://principleddiscovery.com/2007/06/08/illiberal-homeschooling-constitutional-constraints-on-homeschooling/#comment-1584</link>
		<dc:creator>Marcy Muser</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Jun 2007 15:16:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://principleddiscovery.com/?p=497#comment-1584</guid>
		<description>This is a great post, Dana, and a great blog!  I, too, find Ms. Yuracko's paper disturbing.  You have done an excellent job of pinpointing precisely the constitutional issue surrounding her efforts to restrict homeschooling - that the powers of the state exist only because the people have granted those powers to it.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I wonder, though, whether the people of the United States today are willing to give up their freedoms for the sake of creating the "tolerant," "free" society they think they want.  Far too many people in America are easily led wherever the national media wants them to go.  They believe what they see on television or read in the paper, without stopping to consider whether those things are true or what the ultimate consequences of those beliefs will be.  The state can have only the powers granted it by the people, but if the people grant it power to restrict their freedom, then it has that power until the people as a whole rise up to stop it.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I have bookmarked your site and added it to my blogroll.  Thanks so much for your clear, perceptive post.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is a great post, Dana, and a great blog!  I, too, find Ms. Yuracko&#8217;s paper disturbing.  You have done an excellent job of pinpointing precisely the constitutional issue surrounding her efforts to restrict homeschooling - that the powers of the state exist only because the people have granted those powers to it.</p>
<p>I wonder, though, whether the people of the United States today are willing to give up their freedoms for the sake of creating the &#8220;tolerant,&#8221; &#8220;free&#8221; society they think they want.  Far too many people in America are easily led wherever the national media wants them to go.  They believe what they see on television or read in the paper, without stopping to consider whether those things are true or what the ultimate consequences of those beliefs will be.  The state can have only the powers granted it by the people, but if the people grant it power to restrict their freedom, then it has that power until the people as a whole rise up to stop it.</p>
<p>I have bookmarked your site and added it to my blogroll.  Thanks so much for your clear, perceptive post.</p>
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		<title>By: scatty</title>
		<link>http://principleddiscovery.com/2007/06/08/illiberal-homeschooling-constitutional-constraints-on-homeschooling/#comment-1583</link>
		<dc:creator>scatty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Jun 2007 14:24:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://principleddiscovery.com/?p=497#comment-1583</guid>
		<description>I'm still only about a third of the way through, but what puzzles me is the examples she raises. As far as I know (and tell me if I'm wrong) the more conservative a family is (i.e. illiberal) the more likely they are to make sure that their children, sons and daughters alike, get a basic education. You need to read and do some math to use recipes to feed your family and sew all those clothes from patterns nowadays. Not to mention that I'm quite sure the bible hasn't yet been dumbed down like the instructions that come with medicines. Let's get real now, the homeschoolers who make statements like these: “To be perfectly honest, I snowboard&lt;br/&gt;a lot” and “I make pretty much all the decisions about what to study. I wasn’t interested in math or composition, so I didn’t really do it. I liked to dance” are not the ones with "illiberal" parents that she is so concerned about.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m still only about a third of the way through, but what puzzles me is the examples she raises. As far as I know (and tell me if I&#8217;m wrong) the more conservative a family is (i.e. illiberal) the more likely they are to make sure that their children, sons and daughters alike, get a basic education. You need to read and do some math to use recipes to feed your family and sew all those clothes from patterns nowadays. Not to mention that I&#8217;m quite sure the bible hasn&#8217;t yet been dumbed down like the instructions that come with medicines. Let&#8217;s get real now, the homeschoolers who make statements like these: “To be perfectly honest, I snowboard<br />a lot” and “I make pretty much all the decisions about what to study. I wasn’t interested in math or composition, so I didn’t really do it. I liked to dance” are not the ones with &#8220;illiberal&#8221; parents that she is so concerned about.</p>
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		<title>By: Mimi Rothschild</title>
		<link>http://principleddiscovery.com/2007/06/08/illiberal-homeschooling-constitutional-constraints-on-homeschooling/#comment-1582</link>
		<dc:creator>Mimi Rothschild</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jun 2007 19:41:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://principleddiscovery.com/?p=497#comment-1582</guid>
		<description>Very interesting discussion and thoughts. Thanks for sharing the article!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very interesting discussion and thoughts. Thanks for sharing the article!</p>
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		<title>By: Dana</title>
		<link>http://principleddiscovery.com/2007/06/08/illiberal-homeschooling-constitutional-constraints-on-homeschooling/#comment-1581</link>
		<dc:creator>Dana</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jun 2007 16:48:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://principleddiscovery.com/?p=497#comment-1581</guid>
		<description>Dolphin,&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;My only disagreement is really in your definition of conservative.  While many do attempt to force their ideals on others, that isn't what makes someone conservative.  Conservatism is generally about holding to more traditional values.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I really like &lt;a HREF="http://www.kirkcenter.org/kirk/ten-principles.html" REL="nofollow"&gt;this essay&lt;/a&gt; by Russell Kirk and it defines pretty well what I believe and why I consider myself conservative rather than libertarian.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;As far as the author's concerns she raises, I don't substantially disagree.  She continually points out the extreme.  And there aren't very many of us who support those views of women, etc. (hence the term extreme).  &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;What I substantially disagree with is the notion that the parent is somehow acting on the state's behalf.  That is so backwards to our founding political philosophy it is insane.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;You can find anyone with a degree to say about anything you want, and I don't know how seriously this paper will be taken.  But our society is moving steadily in that direction, so I doubt it will be long.  Right now, this sort of state control is only theorized, but that is where it begins.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;It is also very much in line with CEDAW, which we signed but never ratified.  And while that is another document which on its own does not necessarily raise too many concerns, the way it is being applied is disconcerting to me.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;(And I don't believe that we have a "right" to childcare, health care, etc. in the sense that society is obligated to pay for it.  I have a very different definition of what a right is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dolphin,</p>
<p>My only disagreement is really in your definition of conservative.  While many do attempt to force their ideals on others, that isn&#8217;t what makes someone conservative.  Conservatism is generally about holding to more traditional values.</p>
<p>I really like <a HREF="http://www.kirkcenter.org/kirk/ten-principles.html" REL="nofollow">this essay</a> by Russell Kirk and it defines pretty well what I believe and why I consider myself conservative rather than libertarian.</p>
<p>As far as the author&#8217;s concerns she raises, I don&#8217;t substantially disagree.  She continually points out the extreme.  And there aren&#8217;t very many of us who support those views of women, etc. (hence the term extreme).  </p>
<p>What I substantially disagree with is the notion that the parent is somehow acting on the state&#8217;s behalf.  That is so backwards to our founding political philosophy it is insane.</p>
<p>You can find anyone with a degree to say about anything you want, and I don&#8217;t know how seriously this paper will be taken.  But our society is moving steadily in that direction, so I doubt it will be long.  Right now, this sort of state control is only theorized, but that is where it begins.</p>
<p>It is also very much in line with CEDAW, which we signed but never ratified.  And while that is another document which on its own does not necessarily raise too many concerns, the way it is being applied is disconcerting to me.</p>
<p>(And I don&#8217;t believe that we have a &#8220;right&#8221; to childcare, health care, etc. in the sense that society is obligated to pay for it.  I have a very different definition of what a right is.</p>
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		<title>By: dolphin</title>
		<link>http://principleddiscovery.com/2007/06/08/illiberal-homeschooling-constitutional-constraints-on-homeschooling/#comment-1580</link>
		<dc:creator>dolphin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jun 2007 14:39:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://principleddiscovery.com/?p=497#comment-1580</guid>
		<description>The problem is the author of this paper is not a liberal (regardless of how she defines herself).  It's frustrating for liberals like myself when there are so many conservatives running around calling themselves liberals.  What all the nanny-statists don't get is that trying to force others to adopt your way of thinking defines you as a conservative.  Because they look at the ideas they are pushing and see that they conflict with what the ideas those who have already declared themselves (properly) as conservatives are pushing, they assume they must be liberal, but the very fact that they are trying to force those ideals on others makes them conservatives.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I agree with the ideals cited in the excerpted portion of the article: sex equality (the idea that neither men nor women are inherently inferior or superior to one another), gender role fluidity (the idea that a man doesn't have to be the sole source of financial income for the family and doesn't have to drink bear and belch all the time to be a man and a woman doesn't have to sit at home barefoot and pregnant knitting doilies all the time to be a woman) and critical rationality (the idea that we should think for ourselves versus blindly following everything we're told), but I for one would never attempt to force another to believe those things.  Now I'd be happy to explain why I believe those things to anybody who cares to know, but it's fundamental to my core that (so long as they are not hurting others) everyone should have the right to do, think, and believe as they wish.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem is the author of this paper is not a liberal (regardless of how she defines herself).  It&#8217;s frustrating for liberals like myself when there are so many conservatives running around calling themselves liberals.  What all the nanny-statists don&#8217;t get is that trying to force others to adopt your way of thinking defines you as a conservative.  Because they look at the ideas they are pushing and see that they conflict with what the ideas those who have already declared themselves (properly) as conservatives are pushing, they assume they must be liberal, but the very fact that they are trying to force those ideals on others makes them conservatives.</p>
<p>I agree with the ideals cited in the excerpted portion of the article: sex equality (the idea that neither men nor women are inherently inferior or superior to one another), gender role fluidity (the idea that a man doesn&#8217;t have to be the sole source of financial income for the family and doesn&#8217;t have to drink bear and belch all the time to be a man and a woman doesn&#8217;t have to sit at home barefoot and pregnant knitting doilies all the time to be a woman) and critical rationality (the idea that we should think for ourselves versus blindly following everything we&#8217;re told), but I for one would never attempt to force another to believe those things.  Now I&#8217;d be happy to explain why I believe those things to anybody who cares to know, but it&#8217;s fundamental to my core that (so long as they are not hurting others) everyone should have the right to do, think, and believe as they wish.</p>
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