On a recent post on socialization, Kymberlyn of Education Junction left a thoughtful response outlining her personal concern regarding this issue.
I have posed the socialization question, but maybe my choice of words were not fitting. I do not have concerns about my children being polite or conversing with others, etc. My concern has always been about their ability to have a group of close friends….
…I know the work we are doing at home is well worth it. I just don’t ever want to see my son on the outside looking in.
“Socialization” may be the wrong word, but Kymberlyn’s concern is genuine and worthy of consideration. How important are these daily, casual interactions in the process of developing friendships?
I just don’t ever want to see my son on the outside looking in.
This sentence is actually what brought this comment into a post. Because it so clearly describes my public school experience (at least through elementary and middle school). I was on the outside looking in. I was on the periphery of social interactions. I still remember quite vividly the most devastating words spoken to my fragile psyche:
I thought I told you I would only by your friend if you didn’t talk to her anymore.
Her being me of course. I’ll spare you further details, but some of you may note that I have generally spoken positively of my own public school experience in other entries. I liked school. I did even then. But it took me until the eighth grade to stop blaming those around me for my social situation and realize that “victimhood” is a choice. And it was a choice I was making on a daily basis.
There are pros and cons to “building relationships with schoolmates on a daily basis.” To build meaningful relationships, a child does need regular interactions and shared experiences. But school is not the only context where this is possible simply because it was the norm for most of us. School can potentially be a hinderance to some who are not ready or do not yet have the skills to navigate the social situations presented at school on their own.
Social children will tend to seek out social situations and make friends wherever they go. Given a little nourishment, some of these early friendships may blossom into something quite fruitful. Other children may require a bit of prompting and may be more like me…quiet and reserved with a tendency to opt out of social situations. You will find both extremes and everything in between in public schools, in homeschools and even within a single family. Within the family, however, we have the unique ability to give each of our children the opportunities and encouragement they need to be successful in their social interactions and in their ability to develop relationships.
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Wow.. I was just thinking of this very issue yesterday:
“I just don’t ever want to see my son on the outside looking in.“
We homeschool our two children; John (10) and Lily (13), both of whom are very social, independent, and outgoing. My daughter has a close group of friends her age, but my son has always struggled to find and keep friends. The first problem is that he is huge for a ten year-old (5′1″, 120 pounds), and the second is that we just don’t have any adult friends with boys his age. So playgrounds and other public settings always leave him either playing with boys his size (12/13 year-olds) and getting teased for not being as coordinated or “cool” as they are, or playing with kids his age who are many times overprotected by their caregiver and aren’t encouraged to play independently with him (you’ve seen it… they are like a yo-yo with their parents).
But the biggest “problem” is that he gets along famously with adults and enjoys their conversation, so it’s really difficult for him to find a peer group, and I know he needs it at some level.
Sorry to take up so much room on your blog, but I’d be interested in your thoughts. I’ve read your posts about how you feel isolated where you currently live, so you may face some of these issues yourself. (Finding age-appropriate peer groups)
Ross
But it took me until the eighth grade to stop blaming those around me for my social situation and realize that “victimhood” is a choice
What an honest post. I had a similar school experience. I didn’t relate well to my peer group. I was in the 9th grade before I decided to start taking risks and making different choices about how I interacted with my peer group. I still wouldn’t consider myself a social butterfly. I never transformed my basic self from an extreme introvert to an extrovert, but I did make friends and found myself involved in my high school experience.
And, Ross ~ I preferred the company of adults too. As I aged those adults became my peer group. While it might be considered odd to see a 10 year-old comfortably enjoying a conversation with someone who is 30, it is not at all odd for a 25 year old man to interact with and work with a 45 year olds. In fact, in the workforce he will be required to have this skill.
An even better question is that if a child has a hard time maintaining same age relationships while homeschooled–how likely is it that in a public or even private school setting that child will be an outcast–I know I was and that it wasn’t until I learned (in college and then when i married) to be friends with people of all ages, that I really started to become socially adept. My oldest is my social one–she LOVES people and longs for friends her own age. Her best friend is our 78 year old neighbor, most of her other friends are her penpals–one being a daughter of a friend of mine who moved 9 hours away 4 years ago, others are the daughters of friends I made while blogging. She does attend Pioneer Girls and occasionally, church functions (she can’t attend more because of her seizure disorder–the church doesn’t want her in the class without someone to keep an eye on her because they don’t understand what she needs.) She also loves going to the library and park when there are school aged children because she always finds a “friend” or two then.
On the other side of things, my mom constantly makes my 16 year old brother attend school dances and other “extracurricular” activities for the very same reasons, because he doesn’t have time to interact with his classmates in school and he is not very good at making friends.
Ross, my basic thoughts would be similar to Heather’s. A child who is struggling socially likely would regardless of the situation and it might be more pointed in the public school environment where the child has no opportunity to “retreat” safely or regulate with whom he or she will interact.
I have felt isolated at times, but that has to be balanced by the fact that I generally do not choose to be social. I do not put high priority on purely social events and have always found it difficult to get from the point of being an acquaintance to being a friend.
To be perfectly honest, I have always struggled with your typical small-talk. I get impatient with it because those sorts of details do not interest me that much. The first conversation I had with who would become my best friend in high school involved a hypothetical universe in a plastic bag. I am a little weird that way, I guess. : )
Recent frustrations have been tied with similar things, I guess. This summer was kind of rough for a number of reasons which I will not discuss on this blog but you are right that I was feeling rather isolated for a while.
And most of my friends in elementary and middle school were adults. : ) I had some friends in the neighborhood but most of them were older, as well.
Julie, thank you for sharing your thoughts. I am certainly not a social butterfly and I would be an unhappy person if you tried to make me one. I neeed some opportunity to retreat and be alone. I generally make friends easily enough, but it seems to be a more intentional process for me. I naturally will hang back in a social situation and observe.
Not all children are the same, and while I really do believe that even the introvert needs those social interactions and maybe some help from caring adults in maintaining relationships, forcing them on such children can have the opposite effect. We gravitate to those who are more like us…and for some children that is more often found in older children or adults. This is true of gifted children but it is also true of children who tend to be more conversational and less “playful.” You might be able to guess that I prefer a good conversation to most activities involving play. : )
I definately sympathize with Kymberlyn’s sentiment: “I never want to see my son on the outside looking in.” And I would hate to think that choices that I had made for him exacerbated that situation.
It’s interesting to me that most of us commenting here have had some painful experiences of being on the outside looking in at school. I know I did. (My dh, on the other hand, didn’t; he wants our children homeschooled for academic reasons, because he was bored to tears in school). Like you Dana, it took me until high school to figure out that I did have friends, and it didn’t matter if they weren’t the cool kids or that I didn’t have a million friends — it was more important to be myself and enjoy the company of people that I really liked. And that realization came not as a result of mere maturation or of the school setting, but of becoming a Christian and becoming part of a church community.
My social experiences at least partially influenced our choice to homeschool, and yet, I still worry, wishing to spare our children the hurts I experienced. I guess that is the bane of parenthood.
I’ve written some on my blog about our own struggles in this area, trying to find even a few friends in a small town where life revolves around school. One thing I’ve noticed in the homeschool groups we belong to, is that there are a few kids — mostly boys, (and I’ll include my own son in this) who in a school setting would quickly be labeled “dorks” — they’re a little gawky, a little too interested in academics, a little too awkward at sports, wear glasses, you get the picture.
But instead of being marginalized, these guys are confident. They have friends. They play together well and don’t leave anyone out. They are part of the group. They haven’t learned not to try or that they won’t be picked to join in the soccer game, and so they do try — and they get better at it. Homeschool groups certainly aren’t perfect — I’ve been in one that was at least as cliquish and unfriendly as my fourth grade school playground, but I also think that the example and expectations of the parents make the difference.
There is a boy that my son knows from Scouts and from around the neighborhood who is a verbal bully and a name caller. And I’m sure on the playground he is really cool — all the other boys seem to like him and treat him like the leader of the pack. He has practiced his craft on my son this past week, calling him dork and … well, I won’t mention the other name, since it might ruin Dana’s family-friendly blog status. Ds recognizes this as a problem, and we’ve talked about it. What gets me is that he seems annoyed by it, but not hurt. He has resources. He is being proactive. He doesn’t have to put up with this kid (who would be in his class if he were in school)for six hours a day, fighting a losing battle against the influence Mr. Name Caller holds over the all the other boys. Instead he has the advantage of having a whole life, a whole world, that doesn’t hang on acceptance or rejection by this one boy. He can walk away and instead of walking away into exile, he walks away to other friends, other pastimes, other spheres, where this kid has no clout whatsoever. It is the bully who is left in exile. And he knows it. (And if this kid ever makes the mistake of treating other people this way while at Scouts, he will be calling his parents and going home. I’ll be more than happy to address it with them. ;))
So that said, yes, I feel for my kids that they don’t have quite as many social opportunities as they would like. But in the long run, I think they will benefit more (and I already see this happening) from less quantity and more quality. As with academics, I suspect that one on one or small group interactions, more adult involvement, high expectations (in terms of courtesy, fair play, etc.) and moving at the child’s pace, will build a history of success leading to social confidence and competence.
Renae, I think you are exactly right when you say that a lot of this has to do with parents. But I was also thinking of things more this morning, and some of the people I had the most difficulty with in school were at least cordial outside of school. I was on the same softball team with the girl I talked about above and never had any trouble with her on the field.
Schools allow an environment to develop with minimal adult supervision and a large number of children who are competing for limited resources, including attention. Most navigate it ok, but even the msot popular have their spells with difficulty. I think they handle it differently and that is why it does not become such an issue.
And I have noticed the same thing in our homeschool groups. The “nerds” don’t seem to know they are “nerd” and neither does anyone else. They play together respectfully and do develop friendships without the kind of relational aggression that these children might experience in public school.
Wow, Dana, what a great discussion here. This comment by Rebecca captures the heart of the issue, I think:
Instead he has the advantage of having a whole life, a whole world, that doesn’t hang on acceptance or rejection by this one boy. He can walk away and instead of walking away into exile, he walks away to other friends, other pastimes, other spheres, where this kid has no clout whatsoever.
The public school environment is toxic to true friendship, I think.
Hi, Dana!
Socialization can occur in many different contexts, and school is only one of them. Many people assume that socialization, per se, is good, but this isn’t necessarily true. There are many negative social situations where our children would be better off on the outside looking in.
If a parent has a choice, it’s always best to choose positive, healthy, nurturing social environments for our children. Home (particularly when there are other siblings), neighborhood, church, clubs, and sports teams are all potentially positive social contexts that come to mind.
My youngest son (who is much younger than his three older siblings) was homeschooled his entire life; yet he is friendly, well-adjusted, and comfortable interacting with many different types of people in a variety of social settings. The public school system doesn’t hold a monopoly on the “proper” socialization of children.
Thanks for a thoughtful post!
Jeanne
Yes, Jennifer, I definitely agree!
Jeanne, thank you for your thoughts. I think it is difficult to see past what seems like an advantage of the public school because it is what most of us experienced. Therefore it is sort of the norm. But you are right. There are a number of more positive environments in which children can form friendships which is much better for most of our children.
And Rebecca, I just noticed I called you Renae. I think that is the second time I’ve done that. Sorry about that. I think my brain was still foggy from driving overnight from Tennessee to Kansas!
I had a terrible time in school, and probably am more socially awkward than I should be because of school. Not all 8 year olds (or whatevr age) are going to be on the same level, and insisting that they should be only sets up those who are not for failure. Also the high adult/child ratios means that often those who ar being bullied, cast aside, or taunted are often overlooked.
In my experience school was such a bipolar place. Inside the classrooms there were little to no social intraction allowed. Then on the playground or in the lunchroom it became a “kill or be killed” type of place as everyone fought to climb the social ladder and establish their place.
Summer, I think you are right. Children do not have enough opportunity to interact through much of the school day (more so today as recess is being taken away). And during the times they do have, they are not supervised and they do not have positive role models to help them learn to interact well with others.
Dana,
Thank you for the post. I think this is a great discussion. I agree with much of what is being said.
Perhaps I project perception upon my child and allow it to become fear. We live in a small town. Everyone here knows everyone else. We go to functions, such as soccer where the mothers huddle in masses, and I sit at the end of the bench by myself. They talk amongst themselves, never making an attempt to include me. I am not certain what I would say if they did. They talk town politics, they talk of past history-things that occurred when they were in high school together. I am not from this town. I am not part of the fabric of their society.
This would not phase me if it weren’t for the fact that I have children. In passing, I was asked why my son had not returned to school. I explained that I would be teaching him at home. There is something about the responses I get~fair to say patronizing. Who am I to remove myself and my children from their failing system? If you want to be part of the community you will do what others do.
My son has/had friends at his school. Rather the lack of social bond is between myself and the other parents. Before taking him out of the public school, I had hoped his friendships would develop despite the fact I am not part of a parental clique.
Now I am left to wonder if my actions have not created further stigma for my son. That breaks my heart. He is a beautiful child. He is smart, caring and gifted in so many ways. Why an adult can not see the value of his friendship is beyond me. His acceptance within the community should not be dependent on my relationships or lack there of.
We moved here from the city. Even after 7 years it is hard to understand a social structure so heavily involved in historical ties,it leaves no room for anyone new.
I have moved around my entire life so am well-acquainted with feeling isolated because I lack the history with the people around me. American culture doesn’t help much, but I went on about that over the summer and shan’t whine about it again (at least until next summer!)
Hopefully over time, you will see some of those sentiments around you dissipate. It is difficult for any community to accept change and new ideas. It is difficult to step out and try to make those contacts from both sides…both as the new person and as the established community. After all, both sides tend to go on doing what is most comfortable for them.
I don’t know your situation at all, but children seem to be pretty adept at breaking down some of those boundaries. My husband used to joke that we only had kids so that we could make friends. Most of the places we have been, we have “clicked” with people we met through our children.
I don’t even know how to respond.
I am struggling with this very issue. My 7 year old is very adult oriented–sometimes this is good and other times it is very nerve wracking, sometimes I am delighted with it and other times very concerned because to a 7 year old a 16 year old is an adult…if you can understand my concern…and is one of the reasons I pulled him off the school bus last year, kept him home from summer camp this year and was even more motivated to homeschool than before.
However, as adult oriented as he is he desperately wants friends around his age as well to “play” with…and this is very limited in our “neighborhood.” In fact, it is limited to two little boys, one of which is a Dennis the Menace times six!
Due to this lack of similar aged friends my son seems very inept at appropriate behavior when visitors come around or should he be in a class in which the adult is not interested in interacting with a “child” in the way my son is engaging him/her.
It is something I am truly at a loss with right now.
Dana, I think I was probably most like you as a public school student. I had some friendships, but wasn’t all that interested in them…thus seemed stand-offish. It was more me than the other children; in fact, I am probably very much the same way today–I have to click with someone on some level of interest and it can’t be the small talk kind of stuff LOL Yes, it makes me seem snobbish, I am well aware.
I did gravitate toward the adults and teachers in my life as a child–I was teased about it by my mother…but some of my best friends were adults and I looked up to them and counted the years until I would older. It wasn’t until I was in middle school (7th and 8th grade) that I became interested in same aged friends–and even then I was interested in the older crowd (high schoolers)and dated the older boys once in high school.
Heck, even my husband is 14 years older than I LOL So maybe my son is much the same as I and I need to look at that more…I just fear that he will miss so much of being carefree and innocent and childlike, and that he may be outside looking in…someday as he looks back.
Thank you for sharing your story, Shawna. What I am going to say is not necessarily related…just what came to mind (mostly because I was thinking about it already and had actually contemplated how to work it into the post originally without making it sound like I was “accusing” Kymberlyn of this since I am not.)
But I think all of us have certain personality traits which make some aspects of friendship easy for some and challenging for others. While certain situations do make some things more difficult, by and large I believe that we are who we are despite the circumstances. We always look to other people or other circumstances and think of what we are missing (or our children might be missing!). But we do not always consider how much of ourselves we would take with us if the situation were to change. Over the summer, I complained of some feelings of isolation. But would it be different if we lived in a different community? Would it really be all that different in the city.
This was a HUGE issue when I was a family support worker. The first thing that the foster parents wanted to do when they got teenagers was do whatever they could to get them out of their home school district. They looked at their peer group as a tremendous factor in their behavior problems. But kids hang out with kids they like…and if they were to move schools, they would make friends with the same issues. Because wherever we go, we bring ourselves along.
The school may offer some advantages in this area…there are more kids there and you get to spend all day with them. But particularly for children who do not “fit in” this can be a disadvantage as well. Because there is not escape and there is little self-selection of who the peer group will be. If you live further out of town, arranging times for children to play together can be a challenge…but there is also the advantage of being able to help a child develop relationships which are more positive, hopefully leading to greater confidence and the ability to more appropriately navigate peer relationships.
A lot of children may feel like they are on the outside looking in. But I think that may not have as much to do with the environment they are raised in as it does with the recognition that they are unique. I think that we have a greater potential to teach that to our children as homeschoolers (not that unique means superior…just that each child has something special about him that is worthy, even if they do not “fit in.” It can be hard for a child to value that when they just want to be accepted.)
I was never part of the “in” crowd (too brainy and not interested in partying) but I had a fair number of friends in high school. However, only a handful of those were anything more than superficial. Once we no longer had the common experience of attending the same school, we ended up drifting apart. Sure, I’ll have lunch with them every once in a while to catch up but I wouldn’t really consider them real friends at this point. Same thing with my sorority sisters from college and my old work colleagues. A few I’m still really close to but the rest I’ve drifted apart from now that we no longer have the common bond of school/office.
I think homeschoolers tend to form fewer but deeper friendships.
I also muse about this a great deal. One of the many reasons we are homeschooling is to protect our children’s natural love of learning which is something that is not valued by peers in an institutional setting. I remember that I loved to read and learn about all sorts of things, but this was not something I shared with any friends. As a matter of fact, it was more something I hid. I even gave up really applying myself in the classroom and skated through most courses with mediocre grades when I was really capable of so much more because getting good grades was not something the “cool” kids did. Already I see a different dynamic developing between my eldest and her friends. They share knowledge and spread passion for the topics they are studying appriciatively. They are willing to learn from each other and there is a more cooperative versus hierarchical feel to their relationships. As someone who was also damaged and is still in some ways recovering from the caustic social environment of institutional school, this is heartening to me and encourages my homeschooling efforts. Thanks for a thought-provoking post, Dana.
Crimson Wife, I think you may be right. At least it makes sense. That was something I first noticed when I lived in Germany. Here, everyone you talk to at school is a “friend.” There, they are much more selective about who is called a “friend” vs. an acquaintance. That is what first made me really notice how we tend to form many shallow relationships in high school (that isn’t true of everyone, I know!).
It is hard when you do not feel like you can be yourself but instead must conform to a certain standard of behavior.
Crunchy Mama, that is an interesting observation. You are right, though. The kids I have know who are homeschooled do not seem as competitive in their relationships.
It’s very hard for those of us who were not homeschooled to imagine what it is like for our kids, to imagine a childhood without school. I keep trying, though. It’s hard not to think they’re missing something important, when you found important things at school yourself. I liked school too. Sometimes I ask myself, do I wish I had been homeschooled?
You are right, Lydia. And I think that is where most of our self-doubt comes from, IMHO. Most of us were public schooled and it is “the norm.” I do not particularly wish I were homeschooled.
And honestly, “Public school was the worst thing that ever happened to me” might not be the best reason to homeschool. My education decisions should not be based solely on my experiences. Speech team was a great thing for me. I would say most of my education was obtained there. So am I going to force it on my children? Of course not.
It is the same with education, really. We need to look at our goals and our children and decide what the best course is rather than react to something we fear.
No matter what course is chosen, there will always be the allure of another…the path not taken.