On my entry regarding Christian education, JJRoss of Cocking a Snook asks an interesting question.
As a radical unschooling mom but not a Christian educator, this thread got me wondering whether an “unschooled” Christian education would be desirable or even imaginable, in which children were lovingly, respectfully parented but not diligently disciplined, schooled and indoctrinated in anything — not behavior, beliefs, academics, the Bible and religion or general character and values. Do you think they still could possibly end up as strong, lovely, moral, accomplished and well-educated Christian individuals?
My short answer would have to be my favorite German word: “jain.” A compound word formed from “ja” and “nein,” “yes” and “no.” The more I contemplated an answer, the more I realized I was trying to answer an underlying assumption that Christian education = rigid schooling. Many Christian families do follow this sort of an educational plan, as do many secular families and many of our schools as well. It isn’t something inherently Christian, however.
I have my own biases against unschooling. It is actually the first philosophy I studied when I began looking seriously into homeschooling and was immediately attracted by a number of key principles. I joined an internet group, asked a couple of questions and received more than thirty responses pointing out my lack of intelligence and general ignorance. Personal experiences speak loudly to all of us, and I stopped looking into unschooling with any sort of seriousness. There is still something that draws me to it, however, and I think it goes back to something I wrote a long time ago about teaching perspectives. I might write this a little more differently now, after more experience, but it still serves as a basic framework to illustrate my thoughts on how our beliefs about government influence how we educate our children. I thus offer this chart as a point for discussion.
The first row represents the government schools fairly well. The degree to which the resulting methodology is extant in Christian homeschools, however, has more to do with the fact that most of us were raised in public schools and we educate based on what we know. Almost every homeschooler I know has drifted away from this strict model as they grew more comfortable with homeschooling.
The second reflects my impression of “radical unschooling,” as JJRoss describes it. I will let her be the judge of how well-represented the philosophy is.
The third row represents Christian education, or at least my view thereof. Comparing these last two, I think, may reveal some of the attraction I have for unschooling, as well as some of the apprehension.
- For both the radical unschooler and the Christian, sovereignty rests internally rather than externally.
- Neither seeks preparation for college or the workforce as a primary purpose of education.
- Both respect the individuality of the child and see the importance of the “whole child.”
- Both see a loving relationship as the foundation from which the parent-child relationship should develop.
The Christian, however, does have a goal in mind. Hence the teacher’s role as someone who wishes to inspire, or breathe life into, the child. That life, of course, is a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. Because of this, the foundation of Christian education rests in the relationship between the teacher (parent) and Christ. This is the primary model and source of inspiration. Because of this, you will find many Christian unschoolers who are very relaxed in their approach to schooling, but are nonetheless Christian. I do not know how well this group is accepted among the “radical unschoolers,” but there are definite similarities. Others are more strict and some…well, I believe some miss the point, ie., that choosing Christ is just that. A choice. It cannot be forced or coerced, nor adopted simply because the child knows nothing else.
One thing I found interesting while researching for my article Declaring His Power (linked in the sidebar under “published work“) was this chart looking at reasons parents gave for their homeschooled children walking away from the faith (retyped because the graph was too light and not showing well in the scan):
It is noteworthy that relationship issues dominate the answers, including parents living beliefs consistently, showing more love and talking about beliefs. When looking at discipline issues, parents were more likely to credit being too strict with their children walking away than not being strict enough. And then there are those friends. I believe, however, that these friends may have been more of a symptom from the beginning than a cause.
I don’t know that this really answers the initial question. I do not think that Christian education fits well with the idea of radical unschooling, however I do know several Christian unschoolers who undoubtedly focus heavily on this idea of centering education on the relationship between God and each family member. At the same time, Christian education does not need to mean heavy schooling and overly strict parenting. There is room for a wide diversity of parental approaches, each springing forth from an understanding of our relationship with Christ.
A couple of links I found:
Unschooling ABCs, from Noggin News, a Christian unschooling family.
Unschooling: Within God’s Will? via Lazy Creek Homeschool
[tags]homeschooling, homeschool, unschooling, eductation[/tags]
Principled Discovery is a place to stop and discuss news and information related to faith, family and particularly education. Pour yourself a cup of tea and join the conversation! 
Another great post Dana!
I have been following your latest series with great interest. This one (and the fact that I don’t have to work today
really pushed me over the edge to respond with a short comment.
I hope I don’t sound like a kook for saying this, but I think you’re forcing a dichotomy between radical unschooling and Christian education that doesn’t need to be there. I guess It seems like you assuming that Christian education = Biblical education, and that Biblical education requires strict constructs to guide student into an orthodox theology which is required to gain proper understanding of God. However, one of the surprising benefits that homeschooling has brought our family has been how experience has shaped our children’s theology more so than “Christian eduction”. What I mean by that is, having our children at home to witness their parents interfacing with the world as Christians, has (in my humble opinion
given our children wisdom that can’t ever come from a formal classroom or from a study of books. I guess another way to say it is, their Christian education takes place in an unschooling setting, rather than by coursework. So, how that looks in practice is that their ’secular’ schoolwork, their external experiences, and their interaction with their family, are all bound together by Christ who is at the center. The bible is explored as a resource to find ‘answers’, but their relationship with Christ, and their desire to emulate Christ, rather than their knowledge of the bible, is what governs their Christian development.
I hope I’m making sense here… claiming that experience is paramount to ‘Biblical training” is a dangerous path, I know. I just see it as the difference between learning the law using enlightenment-inspired training principles, then hoping that will create Christian adults, vs getting to know Jesus by spending time at the foot of ‘elders’ (”get wisdom my son”) before a proper understanding of the law can be possible.
I haven’t really proof-read this (I need to get my son to 0700 hockey practice) so I’m sure I put my foot in my mouth somewhere, but I’m just trying to open the door to seeing how unschooling might be a necessary preliminary step in Christian education at home.
Well, you’ve got me thinking. Not fair, it’s Saturday.
I guess It seems like you assuming that Christian education = Biblical education, and that Biblical education requires strict constructs to guide student into an orthodox theology which is required to gain proper understanding of God.
Ross- I didn’t get that impression from reading Dana’s post- that there must be a “strict construct” to teach theology. There are so many dynamics to consider that it is IMO impossible to niche Christian home education.
There are principles in the Bible of doing things decently and in order, but this need not mean strict schedules and piles of workbooks. Our HS approach has been to give the kids a foundation in math and reading- the proper tools with which to pursue their interests, and then that is just what they do- pursue their interests.
As for the idea that radical unschoolers are totally hands off- All parents give kids boundaries for purposes of safety and propriety. Until a child can reason out danger and assimilate proper behavior, we all ‘make’ our kids adhere to certain guidelines, or they’d not survive long enough to graduate. From my interactions with radical unschoolers, they also have conversations with their kids about history, morality, ethics, religion, etc… If they don’t present every side and provide various resources for equal consideration, are they ‘indoctrinating’ their kids?
This is a faulty assumption of Christian education- that other views are not considered. I have yet to see any Christian HSer in 13 years who did not teach their kids about other ‘worldviews’. We often sit and talk about other forms of gov’t, different religions, various lifestyles, and we weigh the pros and cons of each, researching history for the repercussions of those differing views. The fact that our research backs up the Bible is icing on the cake IMO.
It is noteworthy that relationship issues dominate the answers, including parents living beliefs consistently, showing more love and talking about beliefs. When looking at discipline issues, parents were more likely to credit being too strict with their children walking away than not being strict enough.
I also see this as noteworthy. Just emphasizing rules and the dire consequences for breaking them is IMO lazy. If the issues of life spring from the heart, then it is the heart that must be addressed, not just behaviors. Within Christianity is enormous freedom, and freedom is scary to alot of people. Too many folks want to forego freedom in order to feel safe and stable(this explains Hillary’s success in a nutshell). So some Christians wrap themselves in the law like it’s a security blanket. But given time, many will mature and realize they don’t need it any more.
You know, folks just don’t give each other room to grow as people. Time and experience teaches us all, and we are too quick to stomp on someone who is just trying to get it figured out, and to find balance. As if WE have arrived. Yeah, right.
This reminds me of a conversation my husband and I were having last night. Our 11yo son overhears anything adults say to each other, even when he is in the other room playing. He has excellent hearing and he likes to listen to adults’ conversations.
So, we were thinking that we should have more discussions with each other about faith and morality, and such, when he is around to eavesdrop. We usually talk about that stuff when the kids are in bed.
I don’t think that a child has to be formally “indoctrinated” in order to have a solid foundation of Christian values.
But why wouldn’t we want to teach those things intentionally?
The real deal breaker for me with respect to “radical” unschooling is the “not diligently disciplined” part. That is not because we are Christian as much as because my kids respond very negatively to not having a set code of expectations and consequences, at least until they are old enough to regulate their own behavior.
I think perhaps there is also an assumption as to what KIND of Christian education is going on. Not all Christians are heavy handed strict disciplinarians ready to crack down on the slightest infraction.
As a Catholic, I am not coaching my children to a one time altar call experience. Rather, I am bringing them with me on a journey towards Christ. The Christian atmosphere pervades our home and school (not in a Flanders/Simpsons parody way, but in a real way).
I see no reason why unschooling would be inappropriate. IMO, “discipline” is to come from within the child, not imposed from without. A child can certainly be disciplined and orderly and love God, and be educated with an unschooling method.
You know, this is something very dear to my heart. It frustrates me that so many Christians seem to believe that Christianity=legalism, especially among homeschoolers. I know more strict, legalistic, Christian homeschoolers than any other, at least around here–locally, and in the Evangelical Bible-Believing sector. I am not saying that this is so with everyone and I have met several others online who have moved away from traditional methods of going to church and training their children but they are few and far between.
My husband and I basically unschool/eclectic school our children. We also home-church because for the time being that is what we are called to do.
Yes there are rigid unschoolers out there (many of whom, at least in the communities I have run into online) seem to be secular–it is very similar to the trend amongst Christians to be strict. More often unschoolers teach what needs to be taught, discuss what needs to be discussed, and make sure they themselves are living what they want their children to be learning. This works very well from the Christian view point. We discuss the Bible and what Christ did in natural day-to-day conversation all the time. We don’t have perfectly structured days when we do math then science, then whatever. Instead we go with the flow and encourage the kids in what they are interested in –for instance my son desperately wants to learn to read. He has some work books and hooked on phonics that he likes to do occasionally and two days ago he pulled out a favorite book and asked me to help him read it–he read 5 pages of it (it was level 2 and had about 50 words a page) on his own. We didn’t even know how much he was able to do because he has been practicing on his own at night. He is determined to learn and is getting it because of that without all the crying and fighting that occurred with my oldest when I did things the old fashioned way and insisted on a certain time to work each day.
We have found that we have MORE discussions and experiences with the Bible and with God in general now than we did when were trying to do things on a schedule. There is more and more interesting learning going on. For instance last night my son pulled out an old hymn book for a bed time story. I started singing some of the ones we knew and pretty soon both of the younger children were laying in bed singing along with every verse of page after page of old hymn. I didn’t even know they knew them (I didn’t learn them till I was in college). The oldest would have joined in as well had she heard but she was busy listening to some classic stories on her MP3 player.
The Bible points to order within a church service but as far as education goes it says to talk about these things when you wake up and when you go to bed, when you are at home and when you go out. It also points toward learning wisdom and praying for it–which we have done with our children. It is amazing how much they learn when you spend time reading, praying, and discussing His word together (and they ask me to read it and often read it themselves.)
Did you read my post (below the post about the Unschooler ABCs) about Discipleship Homeschooling? This is the sort of unschooling we do, which DOES have some structure, boundaries, and guidelines.
I am by no means a radical unschooler and often wonder if unschooling even fits what “we do”.
I know unschoolers who believe their children should be able to do whatever they want. Eat, watch, and do whatever they should choose- but the bible says differently. In any schooling environment or method, we have to look to God for our guidance and boundaries. He says we need to correct our children, to guide our children, and to teach our children… so we can’t allow them to ruin wild. There have to be boundaries, because our Heavenly Father has boundaries. There have to be consequences because God doesn’t shelter us from consequences. You get my point here.
Personally, I don’t believe it is possible to be a “radical unschooler” and be Christian.. but I could be wrong.
I agree with Mandy. Home educating in a Christ centered home would not involve ‘leaving the children to themseles’ , for the Bible is clear as to what happens in a home that pratices that kind of philosophy.
But then again the term ‘Christian’ is viewed quite differently by various people as well.
I grew up in a public school and my children attended a private ‘Christian’ school for ten years, yet I do not run my home education like either one.
Not all home schoolers are the same nor do they practice their ‘homeschooling’ “by the book”. Each home is unique.
In my mind, from what I have read, of ‘radical unschoolers’, is quite contrary to what I read in the Bible.
There are aspects and philosophies I glean from both unschooolers, and homeschoolers, always keeping in mind what I learned while I was in school and my kids in their previous private school.
However, for our home, Christ is center. Raising morally excellent children is my main purpose. I want them to be well educated so that they may hold respectfully intelligent conversations with a variety of people from the homeless to government officials.
Raising three daughters, our prayer is that they will become godly wives and in the mean time be able to serve the Lord in whatever capacity He places them in. Should they be writers, a secretary, or a doctor, they WILL grow up valueing the sacntity of life and showing respect to all people no matter what their stature is.
I think the main point is that not all home educators have the same goal, but a home that claims Christ is their center of education should portray their home as such. Otherwise they may be wise to hold their tongue on calling themselevs ‘Christian’. And that is probably a whole other can of worms and porbably best left to another discussion. :O)
I wanted to add some of my own goals as an unschooling parent. First and foremost, we want to bring glory to God. That’s the foundation. From that point, we want our children to love learning. I watch many of my homeschooling friends pressure and force their children to sit down and pay attention, and the children really are resistant. One friend of mine uses A beka videos… and personally, I don’t think that’s “home schooling” at all. The child sits down in front of the tv while a teacher explains things to a class. This class is video taped so parents can use it to “home school”. It’s rather boring and it’s no wonder my friend’s child skips lessons and lies about what he’s done. He hates learning.
The theory behind unschooling is we constantly are learning as we live. It doesn’t stop until we die.
Anoter one of my goals is to teach my children the things they would need for their future. I want them to love learning so much that they just can’t stop going above and beyond what they “have to” learn for life. I want them to be prepared, especially if they choose to go to college. In my family, college has never been a requirement. My dad went for a little bit, my brother did, I did for a semester, and my husband went for four years but did not get a degree as he kept changing his major. All of them have wonderful jobs, including my now-retired Mom who never went to college. Her love and passion for the field she entered, along with her kindness and wonderful people-skills pushed her to the top quicker than she would have been able to go had she obtained a degree (crazy, isn’t it?).
So, while I will not be forcing my children to go to college, I don’t want them to feel like they are unprepared and unqualified to do so. Therefore, it is one of our goals to make sure they learn all the things they need to in order to pursue the interests they have. There are ways to do this and make it fun using suggestion, field trips, and having books available.
We do have workbooks. They’re scattered on the table, in the kids’ rooms, and on the bookshelves. They have many (official/formal?) education materials at their fingertips if they should desire to use it… and, surprisingly, they do!
I do believe it is best to have a bit of structure and routine… because it helps young children (as well as adults) to function. Besides, life is full of routine, and they will have to get use to it somewhere along the line.
At this point, they are very open to suggestion, so I can suggest working on things… and they are likely to accept.
My biggest fear is created a disdain for learning in my children. They are much like me; creative and explorative. I had teachers who nourished that and teachers who didn’t. I finally left public schools to school myself. I WANTED to learn, and I was getting to a point where I wouldn’t do my work even though I was capable. I think, whatever method a parent chooses, we should make learning or “schooling” fun… because when it’s fun, it sticks.
I hope I’ve made some sense! I’ve done a lot of rambling!
This is a great article and you basically summed up all the ideas I have had on unschooling. I do a lot of child-led activities in my home, but always making sure that the general direction we are going is towards honoring God. If the children want to make cards for someone who is sick, that may be something THEY suggest… (unschooling), but it has a greater purpose in my educational model. If they want to play video games all day, however, it ‘ain’t happ’nen.
Thank you for all your great comments! The reason I stated my bias against unschooling, or at least radical unschooling, is basically this: media bias does not bother me; the fact they pretend not to be biased does. I don’t wish to mischaracterize unschooling, its philosophical foundations or how it is used by Christians and non-Christians. I am certainly NOT saying that Christianity and unschooling are incompatible…quite the opposite, really.
Ross said:
I guess It seems like you assuming that Christian education = Biblical education, and that Biblical education requires strict constructs to guide student into an orthodox theology which is required to gain proper understanding of God.
Actually, I was trying to point out that this is a false dichotomy. I don’t teach theology to my children, I teach them reason. Which means we read the bible and I ask a lot of questions. I don’t teach doctrine.
What I see as a difference between Christian unschooling and radical unschooling is this notion of who is in control and what the end goal is. I may be viewing radical unschooling through an unfair lens. I’ve had a number of bad experiences with this group and I may be revealing personal biases more than any real understanding.
What MandyMom and Heather shared is what I understand Christian unschooling to be, and it isn’t that different from what we do, except that we do have a structure within which I give the children a degree of freedom.
I like your exploring this topic… it is very interesting to me.
With the 1st chart I find it difficult accepting the 1st row in regards to the role of the teacher and the role of the curriculum based upon my 20 years of experience.
In regards to the role of the teacher, what I recall being encouraged and instructed to do back when earning my credential was to facilitate. It was all the buzz at the time. I do think a teacher needs to demonstrate or model concepts and behaviors: curiosity, exploring/research, interest, considering various views or approaches, dialogue… and appropriate personal behaviors/character.
As far as curriculum is concerned, it is more a modern focus in regards to test taking and state standards. In fact, when my 20 year old was in elementary school test taking was not the objective… it a more modern practice brought on from NCLB. Even when I taught back in the 90’s testing wasn’t the main focus until certain grades (8th grade for highschool placement.)
But I think the rest of the items in the row are right on target and have been for quite awhile.
As far as a Christian unschooling ideal, I think it is possible as I think actions often speak louder than words… Mother Teresa comes to mind and the Christ centered life she lead without the preaching/conscious effort to vocally/demonstratively witness.
But that is just what comes to mind without a long, thought out review of the ideal.
Some thoughts:
With the 1st chart I find it difficult accepting the 1st row in regards to the role of the teacher and the role of the curriculum based upon my 20 years of experience.As far as curriculum is concerned, it is more a modern focus in regards to test taking and state standards.
Yes and no. It has its roots in Horace Mann and his work toward a Prussian system. It really began to take hold with Bush Sr., the “education president,” continued through Clinton’s school to work idea that sort of got killed, but was rejuvenated and added to extensively with Ted Kennedy and Bush’s NCLB. It is a long standing philosophical basis which has had varying degrees of support over the years. We are only just now seeing its fruition.
As far as curriculum is concerned, it is more a modern focus in regards to test taking and state standards.
Yes and no. It has its roots in Horace Mann and his work toward a Prussian system. It really began to take hold with Bush Sr., the “education president,” continued through Clinton’s school to work idea that sort of got killed, but was rejuvenated and added to extensively with Ted Kennedy and Bush’s NCLB. It is a long standing philosophical basis which has had varying degrees of support over the years. We are only just now seeing its fruition.
Admittedly I have read little of Horace Mann, but the Prussian system I read on I don’t recall lots of testing, I do recall lots of oversight. But that could be due to perception/interpretation?
Either way, it doesn’t reflect my experience as a teacher or as a mother experiencing many teachers over the years. I have come across a few (highschool teachers) who were all about the standards and the test to the point that they belittled works of literature and students who enjoyed those works, human pastimes and the students who engaged those pastimes: it was all about the tests and what was on them and how much time was put into preparing for them… but it was really only 2 teachers out of six children in the public school system (our 7th and youngest only attended Kindergarten and 1st grade so I don’t count those experiences.)
As many faults as I find with the public school system, I just think too many are generalized by the homeschooling community, which I am part of. Of course I base the faults I find upon my experience both in and out of the system, but generalization are hard for me to make as all of our children’s experiences have been so varied.
The sense I get from most teachers I know IRL is frustration that they CAN’T pursue natural interests of the children because they must prepare for tests, etc. The problem often does not lie with the teachers, who must work within a flawed system.
Enjoying the conversation from these different perspectives, and snickering at the thought of radical unschoolers as any kind of “group” –
JJ
JJROss, I have the same reaction when I read statements which lump all Christians into one group or equate Christian education with rigid schooling. It just doesn’t work out that way. We are all individuals.
Shawna, the testing culture is all part of a continuum. NCLB did not just come out of nowhere as something of its own. It has philosophical roots which have been gaining ground for over a century.
The hallmarks of the Prussian system were:
Compulsory attendance.
National training for teachers.
National curriculum for each grade level.
Mandatory kindergarten.
National testing to classify children for job training.
Testing was very much a part of it, exists very heavily in the German system today which is a direct descendant, and has been slowly gaining ground in the US.
Dana,
You said, “I don’t teach theology to my children, I teach them reason. Which means we read the bible and I ask a lot of questions. I don’t teach doctrine.” I understand your focus on reason, but I propose that theology is just the study of God. Reasoning from the Bible is how we become theologians. According to Webster’s 1828, doctrine maybe farther reaching than theology anyway.
Doctrine 1. In a general sense, whatever is taught. Hence, a principle or position in any science; whatever is laid down as true by an instructor or master….
2. The act of teaching.
3. Learning; knowledge.
According this definition, wouldn’t teaching the principles of phonics or math be doctrine?
I think we are still stuck on the word ‘teach’. Teaching takes place any time we impart information or demonstrate a skill. It seems as if we are afraid of using the word ‘teach’, since to most of us it means desk-blackboard-coma.
I teach my kids, but I don’t do school-at-home. I don’t stand in front of them and lecture. I showed my daughter today how to do a petite dice, and we sauteed some veggies. I taught her some cooking skills. My dh and sons are installing a wood floor in our family room- he is teaching them carpentry skills. And it’s SATURDAY! Call the Education Police- we ain’t supposed to learn nothin’ on Saturday!
We should use whatever method enables the child to learn. If a child needs a systematic approach, radical unschooling would be an unmitigated disaster. If a child is hands on, workbooks create hostility and frustration. It doesn’t matter what method you like using- if the kids ain’t learnin’, it ain’t the right method.
The Bible is clear that there is a way for children to be instructed that is individualistic in its approach, and throughout the Bible, different situations called for different methods of dealing with people. The major overarching principle is that our children be brought up in “the nurture and admonition of the Lord.”
Christ Himself said that if anyone hurts a child or leads them astray, he should be fitted with a cement necktie and tossed into the nearest large body of water. As Christians we take the instruction, training, teaching- whatever word you want to use to express it- of our children very seriously, as we believe the consequences are not just to be experienced in this life, but eternally.
Renae, of course you are right. What I meant was that I don’t teach from the top down, meaning I don’t say “This is what the bible says” and then present scripture to support that. We look at the scripture and I try to encourage her to make the connection about what that means. It is theology and doctrine. I didn’t mean it quite the way I said it. : )
Sunniemom, I agree with you. The original question was followed by a clarification:
…so I was wondering if in Christian education, diligent schooling IS considered the only way?
And to me, that really only reveals a stereotype of what it is to be a Christian educator. It isn’t about diligent schooling. I think the model is “As you rise up and as you sit down.” And as Jesus taught through continual conversation, modeling and object lessons, stories, etc.
I don’t view it as unschooling, at least not in so far as I understand JJRoss’ educational philosophy to be, because there is an end goal that the teacher is trying to lead the child to. But it isn’t rigid schooling, either.
It is as I described it in my previous entry: something with its own philosophical and theological basis. It has similarities with other things, and its own distinctiveness.
And I’m not saying that there is only one way to educate a child. I am just saying there is a model given in scripture, and we all adapt to that the best we can.
As sunniemom pointed out, the word “teach” has many meanings and so does education, schooling, unschooling and even Christian.
So it’s not easy to understand these ideas, but we can at least keep the concepts from getting even more confused, by understanding “diligent” and “rigid” as two different words, and not interchangeable. Every waking moment from rising to sleeping surely is diligent? — but not necessarily rigid.
Main Entry:
dil·i·gent
Etymology:
Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Latin diligent-, diligens, from present participle of diligere to esteem, love, from di- (from dis- apart) + legere to select — more at legend
Date: 14th century
: characterized by steady, earnest, and energetic effort : painstaking
synonyms see busy
*******************
Main Entry:
rig·id
Etymology:
Middle English rigide, from Latin rigidus, from rig?re to be stiff
Date:
15th century
1 a: deficient in or devoid of flexibility b: appearing stiff and unyielding
2 a: inflexibly set in opinion b: strictly observed
3: firmly inflexible rather than lax or indulgent
4: precise and accurate in procedure 5of an airship : having the outer shape maintained by a fixed framework
synonyms rigid, rigorous, strict, stringent mean extremely severe or stern. rigid implies uncompromising inflexibility . rigorous implies the imposition of hardship and difficulty . strict emphasizes undeviating conformity to rules, standards, or requirements . stringent suggests severe, tight restriction or limitation .
The reason why I see true “unschooling” (as opposed to just extremely relaxed HS) as incompatible with Christianity has to do with the underlying belief about human nature. Christians believe in Original Sin, while “unschooling” proponents like John Holt hold a Rousseauian belief in the inherent goodness of the child.
I discussed this idea in detail on my blog here.
JJRoss, I definitely agree with that. I used to view unschooling as an extreme form of laissez faire parenting. Now I see it as rather intense.
I don’t know that this is necessarily considered unschooling, but when I look at the way Jesus taught, it wasn’t with notebooks and textbooks. I’m not saying that these things are necessarily unscriptural, just that the Christian model is an invitation to walk along side, not an order to march. : )
I agree, Crimson Wife. That is sort of what I was getting at. : ) And JJRoss, you said that all ready. : ) (Just teasing…I wish I could let links through again, but now that the swarm of spam appears to be lessening, I may be able to. Only three in the last 24 hours! Woohoo!)
Jesus may not have used worksheets and written quizzes, but He did quite often refer back to the words of the Good Book. Also, He was clearly in charge. He didn’t ask the disciples: “Hey, Simon, James, John, Andrew, etc., what do you all want to learn about today?”
CW wrote:
“. . . Christians believe in Original Sin, while “unschooling” proponents like John Holt hold a Rousseauian belief in the inherent goodness of the child.”
That is quite clear as a definite answer then — no — and I see Dana agrees? Actually I think I do too. We (my family and also radical unschoolers I know well across the nation) definitely believe in inherent goodness, ESPECIALLY in the innocent child entrusted to our care.
Of course I’m not sure where that leaves the sunniemom sort-of unschooling style (blending Original Sin with inherent goodness is intriguing to imagine though!)
Dana, the reason that double-posted is because I sent it twice, because of some strange and scary boldface warning in computerese that I received when I sent it the first time. It went on and on about headers being illegal and I don’t know what all. It wasn’t like a regular “pending approval by moderator” type notice.
Just thought you might want to check it out?
CW- this is where there is a divide inside of unschooling itself. Some unschoolers are child-led, while others are interest-led. Jesus didn’t ask the disciples for permission to teach them certain subjects, but He did use the world around them to illustrate truths, and took advantage of circumstances to teach them about Himself and their roles as disciples. He also didn’t view their questions as inconvenient interruptions, and their misunderstandings He treated with patience and compassion.
I also note that it didn’t take Him 12 years to teach them what they needed to know. He managed it in 3-1/2.
JJ makes a good point about the difference between diligence and rigidity. The Bible is consistent with this idea, in that while there are strict boundaries of moral/immoral behavior (covered in The Big Ten) within those boundaries is enormous freedom to conduct one’s life in a manner that is not just beneficial to oneself, but to those around us, and to society as a whole.
As I understand true ‘radical unschooling’, I agree that it is not consistent with Biblical principles of instruction, which includes such ideas as rebuke and correction. There are lines drawn, and when it comes down to it, even radical unschoolers draw lines of appropriate behavior and reasonable ideas, but maybe not as far to ‘the right’ as the average Christian, considering that a Christian has a foundation for faith and practice in God’s Word, and we consider ourselves accountable to God, and to each other. (1 Corinthians
Of course I’m not sure where that leaves the sunniemom sort-of unschooling style (blending Original Sin with inherent goodness is intriguing to imagine though!)
JJ- we were posting at the same time, so I wanted to address this, briefly if possible.:)
The Bible teaches that we are all born in sin- you don’t have to teach a baby to lie. They are instinctively selfish, but they don’t know that they are selfish, so in that way they are ‘innocent’. The ‘age of accountability’ is when a child realizes the ramifications of their behavior, and at that point they become responsible for that behavior, receiving instruction (as I defined in the last post) in moral and ethical conduct, as well as their own soul’s need for a Savior.
When it comes to correcting behavior, however, I don’t make it all about keeping rules for appearances’ sake. I ask my kids all the time, “Why did you do/say that?” I want them to learn to examine their own motives, and understand that the kind of person they wish to become won’t happen magically when they become an ‘adult’, but must be nurtured just as a seed- watered, weeded, and given sunshine and nutrients. I am helping them form strong character, which itself is a tool they will use all their lives to navigate through circumstances that I can’t conceive of now, but must prepare them for anyway.
So, my sort-of unschooling approach is not without purpose or structure, but it isn’t a rigid structure- it’s more like a skeleton, with flexibility built in, but on which I can ‘hang’ the knowledge we gain with study, projects, etc..
Hope that made sense.
It does make sense, thanks sunniemom.
But I remain bewildered about the actual academic education, which I suppose the Bible doesn’t speak to except with phrases like “train up the child in the way he should go?” — which I always interpreted as a character issue, never thought of it as applying to spelling and grammar or SAT qualifying scores.
So aren’t there important differences between submitting one’s children to God-commanded diligent religious teaching, and submitting one’s children to State-commanded, secular learning of academic subjects, and if so, why couldn’t the secular academic part (less fraught with divine eternal consequences?) be very relaxed or even unschooled, while all diligence is applied to the Christian education?
Does THAT make sense?
I think the rejection had something to do with why the whole comment ended up a link..
I looked up some of my stuff in all my guides and came across the term I was looking for earlier:
I think the ideal is a “tutorial” method. I’m trying to be careful about this, because there are things I see as Christian and things I see as non-Christian, even in educational methodology, but parents need to make their choices and I believe there is wide latitude to choose what fits their family.
This is neither here nor there, but you brought up one of my favorite verses:
“train up the child in the way he should go…”
This idea of initiating someone with an appropriate level of dignity, respct and responsibility aslo fits well in a familial setting. The late adolescent (rfana) should be treated with dignity and respect in view of creation (Gen 2) and redemption (Rev 20, etc.). Thus he should be given experience, training, status, and responsibilities correspondent to his role in the kingdom of God. An adolescent should be initiated into the adult world with celbrations. His status as a redeemed image bearer should demand parental involvement in terms of opening horizons, patient instruction, and loving discipline. It is his dominion destiny and status that the parent must keep in mind. The parent must not violate the adolescent’s personhood by authoritarian domination, permissive allowance of immaturity, or overprotection from the consequences of his actions.
From a very interesting study, that has actually made it into more than one entry around here. : )
http://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/ted_hildebrandt/OTeSources/20-Proverbs/Text/Articles/Hildebrandt-Prov22-6Train-GTJ.htm
Christians can be very relaxed about academic disciplines if they so choose. I don’t know quite how to compare it to unschooling as you understand it because it isn’t something I know all that much about. If it is “do whatever you want,” I don’t see how they come together very well.
But if tutoring…the ongoing intense process of helping a child discovery themselves and their place in the world, noticing when they are ready for certain things and giving them the tools to explore and master these areas…then there can be a lot of crossover. It is more about modeling and guiding than forced mandates.
“Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. ” –2Co 3:17
That doesn’t directly refer to educational methodology, but I think it does apply. There is no single one way that all Christians educate their children, either spiritually or academically. I personally believe that a lot of the rigidity that you see has more to do with the fact that most of us were raised in the public schools and the general lack of an historic, continuous Christian model. So we are floating around between two worlds…the secular education world we were raised in and the Christian world we are sort of making up as we go along.
But that is just me. : )
Ditto Dana.
I would only like to add that IMO the Bible does not separate academics as being ’secular’. Children were obviously taught to read. There are many references to people skilled in agriculture, metalworking, architecture… Astronomy and weather systems are mentioned, as well as aspects of biology. Paul taught and debated daily in the school of Tyrannus. Luke was a doctor. Apollos was a very eloquent and intelligent speaker.
Christianity embraces the sciences, the arts, and history, and as we believe God to be the originator of the universe, all’s fair when it comes to acquiring wisdom, knowledge, and understanding.
Where Christianity departs from radical unschooling, IMO again, might be in requiring certain standards of behavior. And that does NOT mean that unschoolers don’t require moral behavior- rather, the methodology of teaching morality, as well as what kinds of behavior are immoral/moral, might be different.
An example could be 2Thessalonians 3:10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat. As my kids grow, they become more responsible for ‘earning’ certain privileges. They are part of a family, and so they help with every aspect of family life, and that includes maintenance and meal preparation. They are to behave in a respectful manner with me, dh, and each other. This leads them to becoming productive members of society, and not welfare moochers.
Like Dana I am speaking as far as my understanding of ‘radical unschooling’ goes, purely from interaction with unschoolers and what they have said about how they conduct their unschooling lives. So I take responsibility for any misunderstandings or misinterpretations of the concept, recognizing that even amongst unschoolers, there is tremendous leeway for a variety of family dynamics.
Maybe more than crossover, Dana — your version of “tutoring” is just about the best explanation of what I call “unschooling” I’ve heard!
“the ongoing intense process of helping a child discovery themselves and their place in the world, noticing when they are ready for certain things and giving them the tools to explore and master these areas”
Interesting topic, Dana. I’ve blogged on it before and did again briefly tonight. (http://homeschoolnotebook.blogspot.com)
I am a Christian and I also consider myself an unschooler. I have lots of friends and acquaintances who are unschoolers, some Christian, some not. I have never found unschooling incompatible with Christian parenting, the only difficulties that I’ve had are freeing myself from the shackles of my school=education mentality.
Unschooling is not unparenting. We treat what could be considered academics differently than we do character and behavior issues.
If you’re interested I’ve explored more fully in past posts on my blog which are linked from a post referencing yours.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts, IndianaJane! Just to be clear, I do not consider unschooling incompatible with Christian parenting. I was exploring more this idea of “radical unschooling.” I don’t know if that defines what you are doing, or even if my understanding of it is accurate.
I am connecting with that the people I “know” who do not say no to their children. I don’t know how accurate that is, however. : )
Here is the direct link for anyone interested:
http://homeschoolnotebook.blogspot.com/2008/02/christian-unschooling.html
Hi Dana-
I could tell you didn’t see it as incompatible, but at least one commenter did, and lots of others have made it clear to me over the years that I can’t be both.
I definitely have known some of the don’t-say-no-to-their-children types. They do exist.
But I always see that as their non-coercive parenting philosophy which goes along with, but is not necessary to, their radical unschooling.
We’re pragmatic unschoolers. It wasn’t as much a philosophical decision as an act of desperation. (Kind of the same way we came to homeschooling.) It worked for us and has continued to work for us, and as my kids get older and give themselves more structure I am mourning the lifestyle we enjoyed when they were younger.
Jesus didn’t ask the disciples for permission to teach them certain subjects, but He did use the world around them to illustrate truths, and took advantage of circumstances to teach them about Himself and their roles as disciples.
Virtually all home educators I know look for “teachable moments” regardless of whatever their primary approach is. Most also make a concerted effort to incorporate their students’ interests into their HS.
The aspect of “unschooling” that I see as fundamentally incompatible with Christianity is the idea of surrendering authority to the children. Jesus may have been a very relaxed teacher and not have used any kind of formal curriculum, but there was no question that He was the master. In Mark 1:17, He told Simon and Andrew to follow him (or “come ye after me” if you prefer the KJV translation). He didn’t offer to help facilitate them in whatever they decided was best for themselves.
CW,
I agree- regardless of the educational method a HSer uses, we all look for teachable moments. That is where I am wondering if we understand ‘radical unschooling’. As IndianaJane pointed out, unschooling does not mean ‘unparenting’. Allowing kids to pursue their interests and make some choices does not necessarily mean surrendering authority.
I have seen ‘unparenting’, and it certainly isn’t confined to unschoolers, I can tell ya’ that.
JJRoss’ original question was would children unschooled in a Christian home become “strong, lovely, moral, accomplished and well-educated Christian individuals?” and if Indiana Jane’s family is any indication, then I would say the answer is yes, because that is a very fitting description of her children, whom I have known personally, and since the older two are now young adults, she can talk about outcome and not just process.
However, her distinction between unparenting and unschooling remains the key (I still think you ought to write an article about that, Jane), and since JJRoss defines “lovingly and respectfully parented” as excluding being disciplined or indoctrinated in “anything — not behavior, beliefs, academics, the Bible and religion or general character and values”, that definately does not describe Jane’s family — and would cross the line from “unschooling” into “unparenting”.
Also I wondered, as I looked back at the original comment, I wondered…is there a tacit question here not just about Christian education, but about the nature of Christianity itself…or am I just reading that into the coment?
Was that directed to me?
I don’t get this unparented thing at all, sorry, so I can’t respond on that. I have no idea whatit’s even supposed to mean, some kind of tacit question about radical unschooling I wonder, or am I just reading that in?
What I meant to ask originally was whether Christianity necessarily needed to BE indoctrinated and/or disciplined into children, or if it could also be effective to help children discover a love of it without schooling them into it. I am thinking perhaps many reading here now, came to devout Christianity without having been brought up that way? I know people like that, most in fact. OTOH the South at least is full of adults who were “Christian educated” (for want of a better term) and couldn’t wait to get away from it. . .
Oh — and I wasn’t excluding discipline and indocrination from all loving and respectful parenting, I was simply asking if the latter could possibly exist in Christian education without the former.
JJ- I have read several articles/blogs where people seemed to believe that radical unschoolers don’t ‘make’ kids do ANYTHING.
Obviously unschooling doesn’t involve a complete disregard for such things as personal hygiene or legal activities. :p
What is indoctrination anyway? We use to mean something coercive, but the handy-dandy dictionary just says “to instruct especially in fundamentals or rudiments: Teach.” To use force would be coercive, but being a Christian is only possible if someone believes in their own heart that Jesus Christ is their Savior. You could beat someone six ways to Sunday and you can’t MAKE them believe anything.
It would not be consistent with Biblical principles to attempt to force a child to become a Christian, but teaching a child the doctrines of the Bible is not indoctrination. And the Bible also teaches loving and respectful parenting- Colossians 3:21 Fathers, provoke not your children to anger, lest they be discouraged. There are proper boundaries of behavior that should be observed, and any parent who neglects to teach propriety and respect to their child, unschooler or not, is not being a responsible parent.
Just as the disconnect between unschooling and parenting happens in our minds because of preconceived notions, so are many of the precepts of Christianity misunderstood and misapplied.
I venture to say that the reason some ‘run’ from Christianity and the Bible is because of what it teaches-they aren’t running from ‘indoctrination’, but from ideas such as generosity, compassion, tolerance, and sacrifice. That is why so many ‘come back’ when they get all growed up.
Makes me think of young men and women who run away from home because they don’t want anyone to tell them what to do- and then they join the Army! ROFL!
Hi again sunniemom, I was remembering the PKs (gosh, how badly does that slang date me, you know, preachers’ kids?) I encountered growing up. I don’t believe it was the tolerance, generosity and compassion they all were fleeing, but the weight of endless expectations and examples and limits, and rules and restrictions in every direction except OUT. I however, wanted nothing more than to be the best kid ever and a sterling example for others. (I was insipid that way.)
My own insurmoutable problem was stories like Abraham and Isaac which taken literally, made me literally afraid to trust anyone who just listened to God uncritically. I never got over that sense I would be sacrificed in a heartbeat if God said so, but I did come to see a whole bunch of generosity, tolerance and compassions in among the wild-eyed literalism.
Ah, but JJ Ross, you can’t forget that Isaac wasn’t sacrificed. I read an interesting interpretation of that once. The surrounding cultures practiced child sacrifice…and even the Jews did at times (when you read about those pesky “high places,” they seem innocuous enough to us although obviously hated by God…but that is what they were doing up there!) Anyway, whoever it was that wrote this interpretation thought the whole story was in part to demonstrate that God demanded the same level of loyalty and love, but would not require the sacrifice of our children.
Instead, He would sacrifice His own.
There are parents who push their kids too hard and isolate them too much. I would imagine this would be more difficult in a pastor’s family, although I have no evidence of that. Just a thought. That and I think the most difficult for any child is being raised in hypocrisy. The people I have known who left as young adults spoke mostly of how their parents said one thing, expected another and lived their lives yet another way.
That can happen within any belief system. There is a joke in our church about the preacher’s kids. If it weren’t for the deacon’s kids, they’d be the worst behaved in the church. : ) Our pastor’s children are all grown up and Christian, but it is to point out that the pastors and elders are no less human and subject to sin and bad parenting practices as the rest of us.
And yes, I came to Christ at 18 after being raised in a non-Christian home and attending public school. In fact, most of my early interest in religion was a result of a rather dumb ban on bringing bibles to school in my high school. After that was instituted, I carried one continually. : ) Rejected the faith shortly after accepting it, but shall leave that as personal. And then came back again thanks to a homosexual atheist. So there you have an interesting thought on the effects of secular universities on a young person.
Although the need to sacrifice anyone’s child is in large part of what I could never reconcile about stories I was taught as a child.
Dana, that’s a good story! So for Christian education — any kind of education — maybe the lesson is that rebellion is a powerful motivator of the young, and we’ve been much too slow to harness it?
JJ
Hehe. : ) I was rather rebellious in some things, but only in that which seemed inane. I never really went against the core values my parents taught…but my view of rebellion is usually that it is a reaction to senseless strictness.
I just came across this entry and it is quite relevant to the concept of Christian education…and parents’ trust in our Christian institutions.
http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-vilesidious-letters-on-christian-schools
If only it weren’t so true…
What a goodie, thanks Dana! I think I’ll share it with our blog reader too. . .
I was remembering the PKs (gosh, how badly does that slang date me, you know, preachers’ kids?) I encountered growing up. I don’t believe it was the tolerance, generosity and compassion they all were fleeing, but the weight of endless expectations and examples and limits, and rules and restrictions in every direction except OUT.
I have been ‘in church’ since I was four, so I know many, many PKs and MKs. Heck, I even dated some of them! The fishbowl they wished to escape was not one imposed on them by their parents, however, but by others who seemed to think that PKs and MKs were somehow not the same kind of carbon-based life form as the rest of us.;)
That and I think the most difficult for any child is being raised in hypocrisy. The people I have known who left as young adults spoke mostly of how their parents said one thing, expected another and lived their lives yet another way.
This is so true, and I agree- it can be true of any belief system, because it is a very human failing.
I also rebelled as a teen, but it was against the pressure to do what every other moron my age was doing.
“No, I don’t want to have sex with you just because you bought me a cheeseburger.”
“My mom wants me home by 10, and yes, I DO everything my mom tells me. Why- are you going to pay my college tuition?”
“No, I don’t want a doobie- I like my brain cells where they are.”
My big rebellion was reading novels during Chapel. But I knew what I was being taught was the Truth, and would be what got me through life without the scars I saw on many adults, including my parents. They were very honest about their lives before they accepted Jesus Christ, and I would often talk to relatives who were much older and they couldn’t believe the change they saw in my parents’ lives. My Dad went from being a womanizing irresponsible jerk to a loving family man. He went from a 4-5 pack-a-day habit to quitting cold turkey. I knew he was The Real Thing, and his testimony inspired me, even after his death (I was 13).
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I am a lifelong Christian, baptized into Christ’s death and resurrection in my first weeks of life. I attended a mixture of public and Lutheran schools, depending on where we lived.
My children are being raised much the same as I was. Our faith is a gift and a joy, not an onerous set of rules. We strive to keep God’s law because of that faith. My 21 yo daughter’s rebellion has been much like that described by sunniemom. She rebels against the rudeness and crudeness of many of her college classmates. She rebels against the pride that they seem to feel in their ignorance. She also has always rebelled a bit against the mold that the homeschoolers around us wanted to force her into, but I think she gets that from me.
So, I think my answer to JJ’s question is no, kind of.
Christianity does not need to be indoctrinated or disciplined into children. I do not believe that you can “discipline” someone into faith. On the other hand, the teaching of doctrine is an important part of the job of a Christian parent, so I suppose this is indoctrination. But my kids are already Christians. I don’t need to convince them of anything.
I venture to say that the reason some ‘run’ from Christianity and the Bible is because of what it teaches
I agree with this. The key sticking point IMHO is self-discipline, the idea that we have to deny ourselves things that may feel good for our bodies but are bad for our souls. Compare the 7 deadly sins with the 7 virtues:
1. Pride vs. Humility
2. Wrath vs. Meekness
3. Envy vs. Charity
4. Lust vs. Chastity
5. Gluttony vs. Moderation
6. Sloth vs. Zeal
7. Avarice vs. Generosity
Our culture today too often celebrates the former and mocks the latter. It’s sad but not surprising when young people give in to the siren song of temptation and turn away from the Truth.
Christ warned us that it wouldn’t be easy to follow Him in Matthew 7:14- “For the gate is small, and the way is narrow that leads to life, and few are those that find it.”