Strong words from Tony Jones, author of The New Christians: Dispatches from the Emergent Frontier. I don’t want to get into the emergent church debate. I don’t know that much about it, but if his current “dispatch” has anything to do with the emergent church, I think I’ll steer clear of it. He starts off with an argument against (Christian) homeschooling which I have heard a few times:
But it seems to me that if we are truly committed to living a missional life, then we must enroll our kids in the public school. TonyJ.net
To start with, I think I need some more clarification on what he means by “missional.” Like I said, I don’t know that much about the emergent church but it seems to be one of its “catch phrases.” Following a couple of links brought me to another “friend of emergent village” who discusses what it means to be “missional” in a little more depth. He has seven points and I’m only taking number four because it seems illustrative and it gets to the heart of my point.
4. “Missional” widens the work of the Church to the whole Eikon — heart, soul, mind and strength — and to the whole society — church and culture — and to the whole world — including Ivory-billed Woodpeckers and global warming and the like. Jesus Creed
Which led me to look up exactly what Eikon meant because I hadn’t heard it used that way before. But I’ll leave the endless searching for definitions there and go with his for the sake of getting anywhere. I don’t disagree with the point. My question is this: At what point is the child ready to begin to be a part of this “missional” vision? At six, it seems to me he is still a recipient of it, meaning that the focus of the parent should be on sharing the “heart, soul, mind and strength” of Christ with his children so that they will be prepared to become a part of the mission of the body.
The public school, too, has a missional mindset. Which is why I find the first educational authority cited to be so ironic.
In his seminal work on education, Democracy and Education (1916), John Dewey made this point. In an increasingly industrial/technological society, Dewey argued, we learn in order that we may be able to learn. [I changed the first link because it didn't go anywhere.] TonyJ.net
But Dewey also said this in his pedagogic creed:
I believe that the only true education comes through the stimulation of the child’s powers by the demands of the social situations in which he finds himself. Through these demands he is stimulated to act as a member of a unity, to emerge from his original narrowness of action and feeling, and to conceive of himself from the standpoint of the welfare of the group to which he belongs.
The mission of the public education system is to stimulate the child to “act as a member of a unity” and to “conceive of himself from the standpoint…” of his peers. The purpose of public education is to draw him out of the family unit, out of Tony’s missional unit, and place him in the social unit. A child of six is not yet ready to engage the culture in quite this fashion.
I do not quite understand Tony’s elaborations on the purpose of education with relation to the homeschooling question. Somewhere, there is a leap in logic. We get from:
But things change too fast now for that kind of result-oriented education. Now we must learn how to learn so that we can adapt to our ever-changing environment (ever tried to teach your parent or grandparent to use a computer or an iPod?). TonyJ.net
To the statement that, in a democracy, education is for everyone. And conclude with:
So it seems to me that to withdraw our children from public education is to not play our (God-given) role as missional members of our society — like we can’t just choose to withhold our taxes. TonyJ.net
How we deduce our (God-given) roles from Dewey’s ideas on education, I do not know. I would think that if we desire to “put on the mind of Christ,” we’d start with the bible. Tony has clearly illustrated society’s goals for our children through the public education system. Why would we want our children socialized into that rather than our “missional” mindset?
Or does “being missional” mean “being like the world?”
I also do not understand the analogy to vaccines.
We give our children all those vaccinations when they’re young not necessarily to protect them from polio (since the chances of any one of my children getting it is exceedingly small) but because we live in a society, and part of the contract within the society is that we will never again let polio gain a foothold. TonyJ.net
A social contract? Something I am beholden to above the Word? And what is it that is accomplished through public education that we are inoculating our children against?
I don’t, as a Christian, have the option to “opt out” of the societal contract. Instead, I live under a mandate to be the most involved, missional societal participant that I can be. TonyJ.net
While your child does what, exactly? Conforms to his peers and the standards set by the society you are trying to impact? Home education does not hinder a missional mindset. In fact, think how rich an education your child could receive coming alongside you in your mission mindset? Imagine living out the fullness of the Christian life as a family unit, rather than as a family disjointed by the public schools?
Tony and Dewey are right that the child learns ” in the social environment.” Therefore every parent, Christian or not, should be very cautious of the social environment in which they place their children to learn. I am unclear as to exactly which mission Tony wishes his children to join.
Inspired by a True Story has begun to look more closely at Tony’s post. Perfect introduction:
“Few profound conflicts can’t be resolved with sufficiently superficial thinking.”
And Part II is here.
Ooh! And Part III already.
Principled Discovery is a place to stop and discuss news and information related to faith, family and particularly education. Pour yourself a cup of tea and join the conversation! 
Another point that comes to mind is the better educational opportunities homeschooling offers. My children are still children - they are being prepared for life and their “mission”, and it is my job to make sure they are as well prepared as possible. I don’t believe the Public School will contribute much to preparing them for a life seeking God, His Will and His purposes.
These ignorant notions come from not understanding what the Bible teaches about child-rearing, missions, or proper social interaction. These concepts must be balanced, especially when it comes to children in their formative years.
How does Mr. Jones deal with Psalm 1:1, or 1 Corinthians 15:33, or Proverbs 13:20? I think Christians who want to write books about Biblical principles need to read the Bible first.
Hi Dana … my husband follows you regularly and he sent this post to me.
Hmmm … Tony Jones. What’s the best way I can say this? I’ve been in and of the emergent church/movement/whatever-you-want-to-call-it for several years now. So I’ve had the opportunity to observe and read Tony Jones for a while now.
I think your best point was made very early on in this post. The term “missional” has indeed become a catch phrase and no one seems to know what it really means any more. Everyone thinks they know what they’re talking about, but I suspect each is speaking of something different. If you’d like to know more about it, a blogger for whom I have a great deal of respect did a series on it last fall. His first post in the series is called Missional Essentials. He’s also been involved in writing the Wikipedia definition of the word, as have several other serious thinkers in the emerging conversation.
OTOH, my observation of Tony would be that he relishes the attention that comes his way when he’s “naughty.” There are several leaders in the ec who behave in this manner. It fails me as to why they continue to garner the attention that they do, but … I just ignore them. If you are at all interested in finding out more about this, there are some fine, mature, Christians who are quietly doing wonderful things in various places. But, after the way of Jesus, we hardly ever hear about them. You have to know where to look to find them. It’s that old knowing a tree by it’s fruit proverb again.
We’ve homeschooled since our daughter began 2nd grade (she’s in 8th now). So, there are plenty of people in who find homeschooling to be congruent with the emerging conversation and missional values, for precisely the reasons that you have outlined. I wonder what will happen when Tony’s children actually reach school age and he finds out what an abysmal system it really is.
I have heard this argument before. I don’t it can even be taken seriously unless we’re talking about an older child. I don’t think we can expect a younger child to be some kind of representative of Jesus at the school.
The other factor that he is completely overlooking is that homeschooled kids can and do still have relationships with the community and the children around. My boys play with the other kids in the neighborhood. They meet them at the bus stop, sometimes, even.
They also play sports through the parks and recreation department, with kids from area public and private schools and other homeschoolers.
While playing with their PS friends, they have learned the “c” word, some phrase that means having relations with two women at the same time, and lots of other great things.
Sorry, but I prefer to have the rest of the day to counter that influence, rather than send them off to be captive to it for 6 additional hours.
And don’t even get me started on the education. In my district, only 7% of kids who receive free or reduced lunch (which we qualify for) are proficient in math and only 30% of all students are.
I don’t think of my children as a public commodity, such as my tax dollars. That analogy was kind of disturbing to me. It’s my God-given responsibility to raise them; that is what I will be held accountable for. I don’t think I want to stand before God and just say, “Hey, I thought I was being a good citizen by handing them over to the public education system. Don’t blame me.”
Quick note–Jesus didn’t start His ministry until He was a ful fledged adult, nor where his disciples children. He grew in wisdom, knowledge and stature both with God and men before that happened. My husband and I stand on the principle that we are to train up our children in the way they should go, growing in wisdom and knowledge with God and men and therefore we keep them with us, the better to train them, and to slowly give them opportunities to witness while out of the house (like at the grocery store and other errands.) We have had ample opportunities to witness BECAUSE they are home with us.
That’s just down-right nasty stuff. Even imagining that people read that stuff and agree with it, makes me nautious! I’m so thankful that we homeschool and I’m so thankful that God is greater than all the “decrees” of sinful man! That’s the most profound I can find myself on that topic!!
Blessings!
I think the key question here is, “Does Tony Jones have children? And how old are they?” I’ll listen to this sort of argument from someone with grown children who have emerged spiritually intact, as it were, from 13 years of public schooling; but not from someone who has not yet tested his precious theories on his own children.
I think Mr. Jones has three children, the first of which is approaching kindergarten age. So he apparently does plan on putting his theories to the test with his own children.
I went to a homeschool conference last weekend, and discovered a quote that seems fitting…
Spending time with people older than we tends to mature us. Spending time with younger people can lead to the development of leadership qualities. But I believe spending the majority of your time with those of similar ages results only in stunted maturity — David Wheaton, Universtiy of Destruction.
I think alot of people agree, and if that quote is true, aren’t we harming the missional efforts of our children by sending this to public school?
Furthermore, the vaccine argument he gives is a bit strange, considering many people feel vaccines do a lot more harm then good to our children. The FDA just confirmed that vaccines previously used contribued to some children getting autism. So his comparisons are interesting, in that some people believe both vaccinations, and the public school system can harm our children. Are we supposed to lead them blindly to what the government wants regardless?
Apparently young children who is getting ready to enter kindergarten since it was his school “research” that led to this post.
I agree the argument might make sense with an older child who is grounded.
And Heather makes an excellent point about Jesus starting his mission at 30.
Thank you, Sonja. I found a few things last night which were interesting while trying to figure out what he meant by missional. The conclusion didn’t seem to follow. And taking the basis from Dewey seemed odd.
I think it’s interesting that he revived a post that was originally posted in 2005. Wonder if his thoughts have changed at all.
Apparently not enough to do some editing…or even subdue the title a bit.
He pretty much lost me with the vaccine analogy. His point with that is murky at best. I can’t figure out what it is we are trying protect society from by consenting to have our children “inoculated” too.
And if his position is taken to its logical end, then he seems to be saying nothing is of such missional significance as what happens in a public school. Whatever you might do in and for your community simply doesn’t count if you’re in violation of that ‘contract with society’ that requires your children to be in public school.
And by comparing them to tax money he only just barely stops himself from claiming they are Caesar’s (render until Caesar….).
I thought that post sounded familiar. I recognized one of the earlier comments as my own. I heard John Taylor Gatto speak last night, and Jones’s post and a few of the comments illustrate several of the points he made about public schooling quite well.
Um. So, basically, the debate is about the optimal age and venue for sending your kids out to convert mine: When they’re young, when they’re old; when at school, or at the store. (Hey, I bet I could turn this into a little Dr Seuss rhyme for y’all.) May I be so bold as to suggest… or, would I be wasting my time?
I think the idea of ‘missions’ or ‘missionaries’ is one of the most misunderstood elements of the Christian faith. My job is not to convert anyone, but to present and explain the teachings of the Bible. Period. Accepting or rejecting those teachings is purely up to the individual- but as with anything one believes in strongly, the rejection often feels personal, when in fact it usually isn’t.
This debate is whether or not children are able to be ‘missionaries’- and IMO to accept a ‘mission’, one must completely understand and embrace the ideas and objectives, as well as the appropriate methods for proposing those ideas. A young child does not have that capacity fully developed, and is only able to repeat what one is taught by rote. Children, being individuals, should be treated as such, each allowed to come to that understanding when they are capable of reasoning out the issues involved, and making the choice to present the Gospel of Jesus Christ once they themselves have accepted it.
Which is why I am not a huge supporter of Christian schools. But that’s another debate.
I do not understand why so many Christians quote and follow John Dewey-a man who is an admitted atheist.
I don’t believe it is our job to send our children out on a mission. That is for God to do and not until they are ready. We are called to raise them in the Lord, not the world and I think satan has to much influence in our public schools for my liking. I have seen satan’s work in my older children and no thank you for my younger ones. I would say more about what I feel here but that might not be good, as it is just an instinct not facts.
Suggest what?
I agree with Sunniemom that “mission” (and all other derivations of the word) is widely misunderstood. It is also practiced differently by different people.
To me it is a simple as living out our commitment to Jesus to love people and to love Him. I try to be there for people and meet their needs when I can, whether that means driving a neighbor without a car to an appointment or giving a grocery store gift card to someone who has lost his job or spending time talking to an elderly neighbor who lives alone. There is no “converting” involved. I just hope to touch someone’s heart with a kind of love that is becoming more and more rare in our culture.
So, is it okay if my kids do that? Or is that too offensive?
There were some girls at my church talking to each other about how hard it is to not care about looking a certain way at school and remembering that Jesus loves them how they are (without dressing in skimpy clothes). It’s not about Bible-thumping; it is about being true to themselves and their faith and in the process showing other girls that there is another way to be.
But only kids who themselves are mature can do that in the face of so much peer pressure.
Lynn,
You have every right to teach your children according to your beliefs. And you and your children have every right to engage others in conversation about those beliefs. “Converting” them, if you will.
Why is it any different when a Christian shares their ideas? So long as it is not forced or coerced, as through the public schools, why is it an issue?
Oh, no, not this again! I haven’t heard of Tony Jones, but I’ve heard this argument more than once. God directed Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac, but He hasn’t told us to sacrifice our children. As other commenters have said here, children are not ready to defend their faith in that daily atmosphere, and could even be drawn astray. Considering what some public schools have become, I imagine it’s tough territory even for Christian teachers.
Hmm, this Tony Jones seems to be pushing what I term “feel-good Christianity Lite”. Can I get a round of “This Little Light of Mine” or “Kum Ba Yah”?
Hi, Dana! I usually read your blog in my google read and don’t comment much but had to come over and say something. First, the whole lot of what he was saying was confusing to me. I had to “walk away” for a bit. Second, if the school cared about my child, then I would let him go. They don’t, and, so, I don’t. We have tried school. Many times. I was ready to pull the children before my husband but I waited on God’s timing. My God-given role as a parent to MY children is to care for them and keep them from every forseeable bit of harm I can. My job is to train them according to God’s Word. I am not doing my job when I go into a school and find my child hiding in a box AGAIN because the hoodlums are bullying AGAIN and the teacher is standing at the front of the jail cell, uhm, er, classroom pretending to teach. At least he faked it ok while I was in the room but then the hoodlums took over AGAIN and chaos was the theme of the day…days…weeks…months!! God didn’t call me to that. And, he most certainly didn’t call my son to be “missional” to that! Whew… gotta go take a breather
{{{HUGS}}}
Sallie
Dana,
What a foolish question. Your arrogance is stunning. I’m speechless.
You lost me. I’m arrogant because I think it is ok for a Christian to share his or her ideas in a conversational manner?
What was this comment supposed to mean?
May I be so bold as to suggest… or, would I be wasting my time?
In future, please address actual arguments and discussion. If you have nothing but name calling, please save it for your own blog.
Interesting that I should come across this just now, but for future reference, let’s try to stay in the top four sections of this nice graphic.
I can’t imagine judging someone for pulling their child out because of bullying. Of course, I think homeschooling is a pretty good alternative, so I may be biased that way.
Dana–great links that I’ll have to check out and do some posting about myself over the weekend. As a homeschooling parent, Christian, and former youth pastor, (blah, blah, blah), I’ve got a few thoughts to add to this. Will comment again once up!
Thanks! I look forward to your two cents.
Dana - I hadn’t seen that graphic before. A very helpful tool for those of us tend to get a *little* passionate about our beliefs and opinions, like me.
I couldn’t help it…I laughed. It could serve the basis of a comment policy if I ever choose to formalize one. But it has never been an issue. Y’all have always shown self-control and have never needed me to do that for you.
Two personal insults in two and a half years of blogging is nothing to complain about.
Coming in a bit late to this thread… The whole emerging church phenomenon is difficult to define due to, imo, an unwillingness on many of its proponents to quantify their positions. On the one hand, you have sincere Christians, deeply desirous of reaching those sections of our culture that consider themselves, for whatever reason, disenfranchised from the Christian worldview. On the other hand, there are some naive Christians that engage in pseudo-philosophical doublespeak, never allowing themselves to define or be defined by anything resembling a statement of faith.
Regardless of those quirks of the EC movement, the notion of placing one’s children in public schools, in order to better evangelize the world (i.e., be “missional”), is not limited to them alone. The post from Jones, while appearing to be sincerely written, is simply full of errors, from his analysis of how homeschooling works to his illogical conclusion that it is a Christian’s obligation to put his child into a public school.
It’s not surprising to note that many (if not most) of the comments left on his blog were by those who either don’t have children or have no direct contact with homeschool families.
WOO that is pretty scary stuff! (((((HUGS))))) sandi
Dana, thanks for tipping me to this post. I spent last evening really annoyed about it. But I had a chance to talk to one of my pastors who has an emergent church background, borrowed one of Tony Jones’ books and have read more of his blog entries. I still think that the Death to Homeschooling post was intemperate and reactionary and that it fails in several points of logic. But I’ve been enjoying what I’ve been reading about the church movement. I don’t agree with it all, but it is thought provoking.
Some things I read from the EC movement I think are incredibly insightful and a wonderful model. Others, I wonder what planet they are from. I haven’t spent that much time researching, however, and like any movement, I don’t know what is representative and what is not. I could say the same thing about every other movement I’ve read about, I think.
If in your research you get to the “core” you will find the plan is really death to Christian anything. The EC, New Age, really anything adding to the Bible, anything added to Jesus only as our savior, any spirit replacing the Holy Spirit is anti-christ even if it’s dressed in nice, happy clothes. Remember Satan’s work here is to deceive, there is a counterfeit side of everything and every angle of everything. We need to quit reading and promoting Christian drivel and study God’s actual Words.
I believe now the shocker court decision making homeschooling in Calif. illegal was a test to see how strong any fighters would be. Right after that we have a ban on spanking. The next thing they try to pass we may be just too tired to care. There is a rumor that Sept. 11 is a very important date. It could be ushering in the 7 year Tribulation, yet it will look like an ordinary work day to those deceived and spiritually lazy ones on the wide path.
When we will have mandatory public education our kids will not only come home inoculated for STDs but also with the new tracking chip, we will have no say or knowledge it will be done. Remember in Revelations it is only those who will take the mark who are allowed to buy and sell. Those who do not have a new “real ID” replacement for driver’s license (starting May 08) won’t be able to use public transportation, or open a bank account and when all the cash is gone, only those with the “real ID” will be able to buy and sell. Ron Paul has been very open about this. The three at the top, along with many more, have sold our country and their souls.
So how did we all get on the wrong side? By thinking the EC, Vatican, New age, Oprah, Coexistence, the govt. etc. loves you. No they don’t. Only Christ will not turn you in for refusing this controlled life. Only Christ, Yeshua, can save our souls.