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	<title>Comments on: Is college a waste of time?</title>
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	<description>If the foundations be destroyed, what shall the righteous do? --Psalm 11:3</description>
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		<title>By: Halsey</title>
		<link>http://principleddiscovery.com/2008/08/13/is-college-a-waste-of-time/comment-page-1/#comment-1015561</link>
		<dc:creator>Halsey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Oct 2008 19:40:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://principleddiscovery.com/?p=1039#comment-1015561</guid>
		<description>I agree with the post in principle, but in practice it isn&#039;t totally valid.  Try talking to a some liberal arts majors.  Then go talk to some hard science/math/engineering majors.  You will not find that liberal arts majors have any loftier views or more sophisticated mindset.  A liberal arts degree in the right hands can produce a great mind, but most of them are drunkards who are too lazy to study something that requires effort to pass.

Whether it&#039;s at a drunken frat party or protesting chopping down a few trees on campus (I go to Berkeley), you will find that the dumbest students are liberal arts majors.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with the post in principle, but in practice it isn&#8217;t totally valid.  Try talking to a some liberal arts majors.  Then go talk to some hard science/math/engineering majors.  You will not find that liberal arts majors have any loftier views or more sophisticated mindset.  A liberal arts degree in the right hands can produce a great mind, but most of them are drunkards who are too lazy to study something that requires effort to pass.</p>
<p>Whether it&#8217;s at a drunken frat party or protesting chopping down a few trees on campus (I go to Berkeley), you will find that the dumbest students are liberal arts majors.</p>
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		<title>By: Dana</title>
		<link>http://principleddiscovery.com/2008/08/13/is-college-a-waste-of-time/comment-page-1/#comment-991039</link>
		<dc:creator>Dana</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Aug 2008 01:52:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://principleddiscovery.com/?p=1039#comment-991039</guid>
		<description>Thank you for your comments, MTheads.  I don&#039;t disagree with any of the points you made, I just think it is important to remember that a liberal arts degree is not failing.  We are just failing to have a proper understanding of what a liberal arts degree is meant to accomplish.  

I&#039;m all for votech and placing more value on careers other than doctor/lawyer.  I&#039;m a housewife, and I think it quite a noble pursuit.  :)  But the liberal arts degree itself is not meant to deliver job skills so it seems odd to complain that isn&#039;t delivering them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for your comments, MTheads.  I don&#8217;t disagree with any of the points you made, I just think it is important to remember that a liberal arts degree is not failing.  We are just failing to have a proper understanding of what a liberal arts degree is meant to accomplish.  </p>
<p>I&#8217;m all for votech and placing more value on careers other than doctor/lawyer.  I&#8217;m a housewife, and I think it quite a noble pursuit.  <img src='http://principleddiscovery.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />   But the liberal arts degree itself is not meant to deliver job skills so it seems odd to complain that isn&#8217;t delivering them.</p>
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		<title>By: MTheads</title>
		<link>http://principleddiscovery.com/2008/08/13/is-college-a-waste-of-time/comment-page-1/#comment-990983</link>
		<dc:creator>MTheads</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Aug 2008 00:00:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://principleddiscovery.com/?p=1039#comment-990983</guid>
		<description>While I haven&#039;t read Murray&#039;s latest book, or article, I&#039;ve read several of his earlier ones and have heard him speak on C-span, etc.  He always goes to great lengths to defend his remarks concerning not all children being college material.  He also says that IQ is certainly not the only reason to fore go college, but also the desire of many to go straight into the work force or to learn a trade.  Many parents and educators push children towards college and anything less than college is considered a failure.  Murray also has written that we as a society over value white collar work to the detriment of any other kind of labor.  I&#039;d also point out that a college education in itself is not a guarantee of any kind of intellectualism.  Many people manage to think quite well without being led by an educator</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While I haven&#8217;t read Murray&#8217;s latest book, or article, I&#8217;ve read several of his earlier ones and have heard him speak on C-span, etc.  He always goes to great lengths to defend his remarks concerning not all children being college material.  He also says that IQ is certainly not the only reason to fore go college, but also the desire of many to go straight into the work force or to learn a trade.  Many parents and educators push children towards college and anything less than college is considered a failure.  Murray also has written that we as a society over value white collar work to the detriment of any other kind of labor.  I&#8217;d also point out that a college education in itself is not a guarantee of any kind of intellectualism.  Many people manage to think quite well without being led by an educator</p>
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		<title>By: &#187; Brain-Based Carnival of Education, 186th Edition&#160;&#160; &#171; Brain Fitness Revolution at SharpBrains &#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;</title>
		<link>http://principleddiscovery.com/2008/08/13/is-college-a-waste-of-time/comment-page-1/#comment-990772</link>
		<dc:creator>&#187; Brain-Based Carnival of Education, 186th Edition&#160;&#160; &#171; Brain Fitness Revolution at SharpBrains &#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Aug 2008 16:41:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://principleddiscovery.com/?p=1039#comment-990772</guid>
		<description>[...] Is college a waste of time and resources? A: Dana reminds us that the goal of liberal arts education is to &quot;enable every man to judge for himself what will secure or endanger his freedom&quot;. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Is college a waste of time and resources? A: Dana reminds us that the goal of liberal arts education is to &quot;enable every man to judge for himself what will secure or endanger his freedom&quot;. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: JJ Ross</title>
		<link>http://principleddiscovery.com/2008/08/13/is-college-a-waste-of-time/comment-page-1/#comment-987078</link>
		<dc:creator>JJ Ross</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Aug 2008 01:27:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://principleddiscovery.com/?p=1039#comment-987078</guid>
		<description>It really IS a sort of love-hate relationship with &quot;education&quot; isn&#039;t it?  We want our kids educated, we as homeschooling parents value education to a high level, and yet we are so suspicious if not hostile to the &quot;educated&quot; --</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It really IS a sort of love-hate relationship with &#8220;education&#8221; isn&#8217;t it?  We want our kids educated, we as homeschooling parents value education to a high level, and yet we are so suspicious if not hostile to the &#8220;educated&#8221; &#8211;</p>
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		<title>By: Dana Hanley</title>
		<link>http://principleddiscovery.com/2008/08/13/is-college-a-waste-of-time/comment-page-1/#comment-986741</link>
		<dc:creator>Dana Hanley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Aug 2008 19:39:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://principleddiscovery.com/?p=1039#comment-986741</guid>
		<description>I think it is easier to argue on the practical level than the philosophical, although both are important to the conversation.  Murray&#039;s voice is just one voice in the conversation, but his seems to represent a nationwide trend focused on credentializing and moving students from school to the workplace.  There are parts of it which are naturally appealing and I think that is why these kinds of essays get such attention.  

Of all the blogs I looked through regarding this essay, most were strongly supportive of Murray.  And most of those were conservative.  Pandagon was against it.  And the one I linked to.  So I think it is an important issue to discuss, and perhaps moreso among conservatives who seem to feel like education has served liberal purposes for too long.  Me divining motivations against, I guess, but it is the sense I get in these discussions.

To debunk it, I think there are two things to focus on.  One is a common philosophical starting point, like what education even is.  I don&#039;t think we&#039;ll get far there, but clearly arguing the foundation is always a good starting point.

Second would be to note where the schools are ill-equipped to do this, just as they are ill-equipped to satisfy the &quot;socialization&quot; issue if we look at what parents see their children contending with in school.  A similar approach applied directly to this school-to-work mentality would be to emphasize the amount of time children have to pursue their interests, including potential career choices.  And of course looking at the amount of volunteer work, jobs and apprenticeship type programs homeschoolers are able, by virtue of their flexibility, to pursue.  

So I guess the condensed answer for me would be:  There is more to education than work, but it is one purpose of education.  And homeschooling presents myriad opportunities for developing skills in this area.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think it is easier to argue on the practical level than the philosophical, although both are important to the conversation.  Murray&#8217;s voice is just one voice in the conversation, but his seems to represent a nationwide trend focused on credentializing and moving students from school to the workplace.  There are parts of it which are naturally appealing and I think that is why these kinds of essays get such attention.  </p>
<p>Of all the blogs I looked through regarding this essay, most were strongly supportive of Murray.  And most of those were conservative.  Pandagon was against it.  And the one I linked to.  So I think it is an important issue to discuss, and perhaps moreso among conservatives who seem to feel like education has served liberal purposes for too long.  Me divining motivations against, I guess, but it is the sense I get in these discussions.</p>
<p>To debunk it, I think there are two things to focus on.  One is a common philosophical starting point, like what education even is.  I don&#8217;t think we&#8217;ll get far there, but clearly arguing the foundation is always a good starting point.</p>
<p>Second would be to note where the schools are ill-equipped to do this, just as they are ill-equipped to satisfy the &#8220;socialization&#8221; issue if we look at what parents see their children contending with in school.  A similar approach applied directly to this school-to-work mentality would be to emphasize the amount of time children have to pursue their interests, including potential career choices.  And of course looking at the amount of volunteer work, jobs and apprenticeship type programs homeschoolers are able, by virtue of their flexibility, to pursue.  </p>
<p>So I guess the condensed answer for me would be:  There is more to education than work, but it is one purpose of education.  And homeschooling presents myriad opportunities for developing skills in this area.</p>
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		<title>By: CircleReader</title>
		<link>http://principleddiscovery.com/2008/08/13/is-college-a-waste-of-time/comment-page-1/#comment-986701</link>
		<dc:creator>CircleReader</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Aug 2008 17:45:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://principleddiscovery.com/?p=1039#comment-986701</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&quot;Even homeschoolers sometimes cross over into this “anti-intellectual populism,” it seems. I don’t know why that is.&quot;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I know what you mean, and I don’t like to divine other people’s motives too much, but I think a lot of it has to do with a reaction to the culture.

There is a certain sense of their being an “educated elite” but rather than respond to their arguments directly, many seem to prefer to question “intellectualism” altogether.&quot;&lt;/blockquote&gt; Spot on! 

Wrestling with the nature of education and intellectual inquiry is a longstanding practice among educators. (&lt;a href=&quot;http://readingcirclebooks.com/archives/13&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;My very first blog post&lt;/a&gt; dealt with some of that wrestling!) &lt;i&gt;What are we doing here?&lt;/i&gt; and &lt;i&gt;What makes it worthwhile?&lt;/i&gt; are perennial questions for all learners. I think homeschooling just highlights the importance of those questions, while connecting them more strongly with &lt;i&gt;Who are &quot;we&quot; who are doing this learning?&lt;/i&gt; and &lt;i&gt;Who do we trust?&lt;/i&gt;
 
Those questions are not the sort that are going to go away. So I don&#039;t think we should worry if an off-the-wall voice (like Murray&#039;s) frets in public once in a while. He&#039;s certainly not the whole conversation.

That said, is the &quot;school-for-work-skills&quot; argument something that can be debunked as easily as (for instance) the socialization myth? What can homeschoolers contribute to the public conversation on the nature and purpose of becoming educated?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><blockquote>&#8220;Even homeschoolers sometimes cross over into this “anti-intellectual populism,” it seems. I don’t know why that is.&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p>I know what you mean, and I don’t like to divine other people’s motives too much, but I think a lot of it has to do with a reaction to the culture.</p>
<p>There is a certain sense of their being an “educated elite” but rather than respond to their arguments directly, many seem to prefer to question “intellectualism” altogether.&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p> Spot on! </p>
<p>Wrestling with the nature of education and intellectual inquiry is a longstanding practice among educators. (<a href="http://readingcirclebooks.com/archives/13" rel="nofollow">My very first blog post</a> dealt with some of that wrestling!) <i>What are we doing here?</i> and <i>What makes it worthwhile?</i> are perennial questions for all learners. I think homeschooling just highlights the importance of those questions, while connecting them more strongly with <i>Who are &#8220;we&#8221; who are doing this learning?</i> and <i>Who do we trust?</i></p>
<p>Those questions are not the sort that are going to go away. So I don&#8217;t think we should worry if an off-the-wall voice (like Murray&#8217;s) frets in public once in a while. He&#8217;s certainly not the whole conversation.</p>
<p>That said, is the &#8220;school-for-work-skills&#8221; argument something that can be debunked as easily as (for instance) the socialization myth? What can homeschoolers contribute to the public conversation on the nature and purpose of becoming educated?</p>
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		<title>By: College - a waste of time and money or just kind of inefficient?</title>
		<link>http://principleddiscovery.com/2008/08/13/is-college-a-waste-of-time/comment-page-1/#comment-985286</link>
		<dc:creator>College - a waste of time and money or just kind of inefficient?</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Aug 2008 11:53:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://principleddiscovery.com/?p=1039#comment-985286</guid>
		<description>[...] even a civic purpose for the liberal arts education - and this wouldn&#8217;t go away either if certifications became available for more liberal arts [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] even a civic purpose for the liberal arts education &#8211; and this wouldn&#8217;t go away either if certifications became available for more liberal arts [...]</p>
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		<title>By: DJ</title>
		<link>http://principleddiscovery.com/2008/08/13/is-college-a-waste-of-time/comment-page-1/#comment-985023</link>
		<dc:creator>DJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Aug 2008 19:05:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://principleddiscovery.com/?p=1039#comment-985023</guid>
		<description>While I haven&#039;t read Mr Murray&#039;s entire article(there didn&#039;t seem much point after the first few paragraphs),it saddens me to think that we have forgotten the many wonderous things a well rounded education can provide to child. Things that will serve to enrich his life and therefore the lives of all who know him. If our institutes of higher learning begin to educate with the same goals in mind our public schools have now, I predict our nation&#039;s problems will multiply.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While I haven&#8217;t read Mr Murray&#8217;s entire article(there didn&#8217;t seem much point after the first few paragraphs),it saddens me to think that we have forgotten the many wonderous things a well rounded education can provide to child. Things that will serve to enrich his life and therefore the lives of all who know him. If our institutes of higher learning begin to educate with the same goals in mind our public schools have now, I predict our nation&#8217;s problems will multiply.</p>
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		<title>By: Dana</title>
		<link>http://principleddiscovery.com/2008/08/13/is-college-a-waste-of-time/comment-page-1/#comment-984997</link>
		<dc:creator>Dana</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Aug 2008 17:55:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://principleddiscovery.com/?p=1039#comment-984997</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;Even homeschoolers sometimes cross over into this “anti-intellectual populism,” it seems. I don’t know why that is.&lt;/em&gt;

I know what you mean, and I don&#039;t like to divine other people&#039;s motives too much, but I think a lot of it has to do with a reaction to the culture.  

There is a certain sense of their being an &quot;educated elite&quot; but rather than respond to their arguments directly, many seem to prefer to question &quot;intellectualism&quot; altogether.

Shawna, I know how you feel.  I don&#039;t get it much in my personal circle, but there is a certain sense that if you are not earning a salary equivalent to the potential others see in you, you have &quot;wasted&quot; something.  Even if all the choices were your own and you are content where you are at.

Contentment isn&#039;t a very high aspiration these days, nor is it greatly respected.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>Even homeschoolers sometimes cross over into this “anti-intellectual populism,” it seems. I don’t know why that is.</em></p>
<p>I know what you mean, and I don&#8217;t like to divine other people&#8217;s motives too much, but I think a lot of it has to do with a reaction to the culture.  </p>
<p>There is a certain sense of their being an &#8220;educated elite&#8221; but rather than respond to their arguments directly, many seem to prefer to question &#8220;intellectualism&#8221; altogether.</p>
<p>Shawna, I know how you feel.  I don&#8217;t get it much in my personal circle, but there is a certain sense that if you are not earning a salary equivalent to the potential others see in you, you have &#8220;wasted&#8221; something.  Even if all the choices were your own and you are content where you are at.</p>
<p>Contentment isn&#8217;t a very high aspiration these days, nor is it greatly respected.</p>
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