I may be treading into waters here that are better left untouched, but this sort of teaching had a profound effect on me shortly after my conversion to Christianity, and drove me into a sort of spiritual dormancy less than six months after my awakening. Ironically, it was an atheist homosexual that re-awakened me, but that is a story for another time. As I explained in a post about some of my personal journey to find my voice:
When I became a Christian, I did not have very good bible teaching. I attended church sporadically because of my schedule. Fred Phelps was very active on my campus and cast everything remotely Christian in the shadow of his presence. The single most memorable event in college was trying to get to the student union during Gay Pride Week. He staged a protest and I had to walk the gauntlet between the two groups, bombarded with signs saying, “God hates f*gs” and so-called Christians screaming hateful things and trying to shout down the speakers for the event.
I was horrified, but did not know enough to realize that what these people were doing was not Christian. So I did not identify myself publicly as a Christian because to do so meant I was involved with that. Instead, I was silent.
So what do you think of sermons like this? [WARNING: Offensive language and you likely do not want your children listening to this. ]
I cannot listen to it outside my own frame of reference…as a new convert intimidated by the same tone, the same language, the same hatred. As a Christian moved to silence and a witness muted due to lack of understanding of what was going on.
Pharyngula sees a “terrifying, crazy Republican woman” (referring to the author of Homeschooling Hints who has been posting on this issue). I see another, more subtle, attack on Christianity. As few in number as they may be, it is views like these which are driving legislation which will eventually affect all of us. Not to mention the more important issue of the number of people they succeed in driving away from Christ rather than merely into spiritual dormancy for a couple of years.
What do you think? And how do you respond?
Christianity homosexuality Stephen L Anderson Faithful Word Baptist Church
Principled Discovery is a place to stop and discuss news and information related to faith, family and particularly education. Pour yourself a cup of tea and join the conversation! 
I do not know about others but I think Christians miss an important point when we discuss this with our kids. This is also how I discuss this with adults.
God is clear. Sex is a wonderful gift from God. But He was clear; ALL sex outside of a marriage between a man and a woman, (whether it be adultry, pre-marital, homosexuality, beastality) is all fornication to God. No one sin is greater than the other. In God’s eyes they are all the same.
Yes, the church does tend to focus on homosexuality as of late but that is the fault of the gay community. They show tolerance for everyone’s beliefs except Christians. My view: if you want to be a homosexual, that is your business. All sins (from over-eating, lying, murder, homosexuality) are the same in God’s eyes. Don’t like it? Take it up with God. Yeah, good luck with that.
Anyway, I am no worse a sinner than you and you are no worse a sinner than me. My problem, as well as for most Christians, is the Gay community trying to FORCE us to change God’s Word. They sit and wave the flag of live and let live, but they do not practice it.
I think that we all find people preaching hate in the name of Christ fairly frightening and intimidating. But it is our responsibility to speak up in the name of love and compassion. As a priest once informed us during his homily, “Killing for Christ is not theologically sound.”
The Catholic Church, by the way, deems homosexual acts immoral, not homosexuality itself. And it has many religious who take care (lovingly) of gay men afflicted with AIDS.
I just had a discussion about homosexual acts vs. homosexuals with my 13 year old yesterday, while we were watching Expelled.
Anyway…It is not the place of Christians to judge what is the place of God to judge. I.e. HIS enemies, which are spiritual. We do have a realm of judgment, it is to do good to our OWN enemies and to judge amongst Christians, i.e. Church discipline.
It was very poor judgment on the part of the homeschool mom to joke about wishing the school would blow up.
A better comment would have been regarding the unconstitutionality of building such a place with tax dollars.
As always, I find the comments more interesting than the blog post. One of Phyrg…whatever her name is…commenters said they were surprised such a thing could be said on the internet and that the FBI wasn’t investigating. Hello? Been on the internet long?
I don’t think that the gay community is at fault for the church focusing on homosexuality so much lately. They might have provided plenty of stimulus for discussion, but they are not responsible for our actions. We always have the power to choose how to respond.
I struggle to find a balance of truth and love in my speech and actions. We were in a very legalistic congregation for years, and love and grace were present, but in measured amounts. After moving, we are in a congregation that is trying to figure out how to use the balance of truth and love in teaching what the Bible says but not scaring away or shunning those who don’t meet the Bible standards because none of us do.
Suburbancorrespondent brought up something I know is true. A young man I knew became Catholic largely because of their outreach to the gay community, especially those with AIDS. Sadly, he passed away a few months ago.
There is not one passage of scripture that says anything about hating the sin and loving the sinner. That lie came from Ghandi. If you worhship Ghandi, then just say that and then tell his lying false doctrine, but if you say you are a Christian, then you must follow the teachings of Christ. Christ said - if you love me, KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS (John 14:15).
The only love that any human being has to offer the other is set forth by God. We do not own salvation, we can only OBEY the commandments of God, and we can love our neighbor as ourselves, and Lev. 19:17,18 says you do that by warning them that their sin is taking them to hell and if we don’t do that, we hate our neighbor in our hearts.
So - I glean from the words on this page that you people have cast your lot in with the Catholic Pedophile Machine. The largest pedophile machine in the entire world. PRIESTS RAPE CHILDREN. God hates them for that. God requires that you COME OUT FROM AMONG THEM AND BE NOT PARTAKER OF THEIR SIN. So if you park your car in the lot of the Catholic monster or give one dime to them, you are enabling their sin, and God will require that from you. If you care about your never dying soul, you will shut your mouth, get a Bible, READ THE WORDS and obey your God. All the rest of this boring blather is just that, boring blather.
No worshipping of Mary.
No lying on God and pretending that those brute beasts at the Vatican ARE God.
No raping priests.
No f*gs.
No pretending that you can pay the beast and he can change your divorce into an annulment.
Stop lying about Peter - a humble servant of God - read 1 and 2 Peter - ALL OF IT and HEED HIS WARNINGS!
The Lord is coming and america is DOOMED.
Your best friend,
Shirley Phelps-Roper
edited slightly by blog author
Shirley Phelps-Roper said:
“We do not own salvation, we can only OBEY the commandments of God, and we can love our neighbor as ourselves, and Lev. 19:17,18 says you do that by warning them that their sin is taking them to hell and if we don’t do that, we hate our neighbor in our hearts.”
But does that mean we need to yell and scream at them and tell them they’re worthless? Tell me how many people have been convinced to follow God after being treated that way.
I really didn’t mean to sound snarky in my last comment. I earnestly want to know.
This caught my attention from mrs. dani:
“No one sin is greater than the other. In God’s eyes they are all the same.”
Favorite Daughter (the comparative religion student) and I recently spent several fascinated hours immersed in Dante’s detailed descriptions of all the relative sins in purgatory and all the escalating circles of hell, and as painted by Botticelli.
So how should such elaborate classical error be explained, if it’s so clear now that all sins are created equal?
Dear Mary, the problem with the internet is you can never tell the tone of a person’s voice. You ask an excellent question.
No, you do not need to yell and scream. Christ never had to. He made a greater impression by speaking clearly with love. Look at the woman taken in the very act of adultry. He made a greater impression by saying, “Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone” Of couse people forget the next words out of His mouth to the woman, “Go and sin no more.”
No, yelling and screaming generally does nothing. But not standing up for the Word of God or watering it down so as not to offend anyone does the same.
We are to share God’s Word; which is both one of love but also of judgement. We tend to as human beings (and I too am guilty) only focus on one or the other. This is wrong.
We are ALL sinners. We ALL are in need of Savior, whether we wish to accept it or not. We are commanded to share the Word of God. We can not back down from the truth but we can not stand there and be cruel or mean. It is an indeed fine line that we must work at. People go to the extreme at both ends from standing screaming at people to those who sit and do nothing so they will not be seen as intolerant. Both are wrong.
Shirley, first off, we are not all Catholic here.
Second, I think you are forgetting that all fall short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23) and there is not a just man in all the earth (Ecclesiastes 7:20). So how do we address the sin of man? First with the fruits of the Spirit:
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
And second with an answer:
1Pe 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
1Pe 3:16 Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.
1 Corinthians 13
4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
Galatians 5:22
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control.
And as to an answer. The first problem I have with the answer given by him and by you is that it is not terribly convincing to anyone. If I were a homosexual, I certainly would not be impressed by the ravings of one who used such language, and described me as a “bundle of sticks” used to light a fire.
The second is the claim that there is no salvation. Romans 1 goes on at length. But there is another verse in the bible which brings up the same sins (which include despite and lack of mercy, I might add, two sins I see rampant in these sorts of speeches).
1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Seems to be saying the same…that sinners have no part of the kingdom of God. But do they have no chance at salvation? Look at the very next verse.
1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
Not only did the members of the church at Corinth come out of some of these sins, but they were returning to some of them. Yet, they are described not as eternally separated, but as sanctified and justified in the name of the Lord Jesus.
And if the sins of Sodom were so great (obviously bad enough to warrant fire and brimstone raining down on it) as to bar anyone engaging in that sort of behavior for ever entering the kingdom of Heaven, why does Jesus then say this?
Mat 11:23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
Mat 11:24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom, in the day of judgment, than for thee.
It is sin that separates us from God, and Christ that allows a path back. So why the fixation on just this one, to the exclusion of all others and in such a way as to drive people from God rather than to him?
My speakers aren’t working so I have to try and weed through the text and comments to figure out what’s going on, but just by the tags you used for this post, using a Baptist Church name, I just wondered if that preacher was a Baptist and what exactly he said. I wish it was closed caption.
However just for the sake of the conversation not all Baptists support one another in their beliefs, just as not all Catholics are the kind that killed the early Christians. I will watch the video on my daughters computer in a bit, so please forgive me if my comment is off base, as I cannot hear the video.
Yet there was a time when Jesus was clearly angry and it was in the temple when those who made it into a den of thieves and He demanded that it be a house of prayer. He overturned the table sand chased them out of the temple. So Yes I believe Jesus raised his voice that time. It shows that He takes specific interest in what is done in HIS house.
Now you have preachers marrying homosexuals and it is very clear and evident throughout scripture that God does NOT support that kind of lifestyle. How do the homosexuals convince themselves otherwise when the verses are so clear?
And how to preachers convince themselves otherwise? I think it’s because they do not believe in the Word of God as THE Word of God, the infallible inspired truth that it actually is.
Be careful Christians. Don’t mess with God’s house or His Word.
Mrs Dani, I understand that internet communications lose a lot of context. I clicked on the previous poster’s website, however, and saw lots of name calling and bashing. I did not see any love. I also watched several minutes of the video Dana posted. I don’t think I was taking it out of context, although perhaps I could be wrong.
The phrase “hate the sin but love the sinner” is not in Scripture, it is true. But the Bible says that NOTHING can separate us from the love of God. God wants and deserves for us to repent of our sin and live for Him, and there is a real place called hell, where some people will sadly send eternity. But just because some people will end up there doesn’t mean that’s what God wants for them.
Most, if not all, instructions given in the NT to warn people of their sin is referring to Christians talking to other Christians. Those are instances where the person already has an established relationship with the Savior. They don’t need convinced of the need to be saved because they’ve already been convinced.
We can’t expect people who are not followers of God to follow God’s principles. And we’re not going to persuade them to become followers of God by telling them God hates them.
(Sorry if my response is disjointed. I kept being interrupted!)
I do agree, Dana, but I also have children in public schools and can tell you that even here in conservative Missouri, there IS an agenda to indoctrinate these children into believing that homosexuality is “ok.” That’s not to excuse some of the more… interesting… protests I’ve seen, but I can honestly say I would understand if someone felt they were goaded into singling out that particular sin for discussion. I can assure you that the Christian viewpoint that there even IS a such thing as sin is not tolerated well in the public school that receives my tax money.
Wow. I didn’t get far into the video. Sorry.
“The *entire law* is summed up in a single command: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’”
Gal.5 (And Matthew 5, Matthew 19, Matthew 22, Mark 12- 2 places, Luke 10, and Romans 13)
Have you ever noticed that went Jesus got ugly at folks, it was always the religious folks he was talking to?
Wow, I left the computer for a few minutes while typing my comment and two more popped up.
Guess no one reads your blog. :p
SisterLisa, you will be able to glean more if you go to the website. The original post that led me to the blog (it has already been removed) appeared to call for “biblical” justice in the stoning of homosexuals. The post I linked to, and the message of this man, is basically summarized by saying that God has turned these people over to their sin and there is no salvation for them.
Mrs. C, I agree. But even if one decides to single this out, I do believe it needs to be done with a little more compassion for the lost, a little more focus on the power of God to salvation and a little more gentleness of spirit.
I commented a couple of hours ago, foolishly included a link or two. Maybe Dana can fish it out of the filter and post it so I can join in, too?
Fred Phelps is a false teacher, and his followers need to hear the gospel as much as those they have made it their life’s mission to attack.
Test - my comments seem to be blocked
Thank you Dana. I will try this now that I’m home. From my daughter’s computer. I wanted to now respond to this quote from CrossView, “Have you ever noticed that went Jesus got ugly at folks, it was always the religious folks he was talking to?”
Very true, when Jesus preached HARDEST was to those ‘religious’ individuals and groups who thought they had it all together and were judging sinners harshly. When he spoke to sinners he was lovingly trying to convince them of their sin and need for Salvation. We also know that in the New testament that as the disciples were going house to house, tow by two, that they were admonished that if any refuse to hear the Word they they were to dust off their shoes and continue forward.
I won’t debate a person into salvation. Those who truly want to know will be willing to listen. We are to ‘compel’ them to come, not intimidate them. We are to go to the ‘highways and byways’ of life. He came to seek and to save those which are lost. He is not willing that any should perish, but that all would come to repentance. Although His desire is that ALL would be saved, the fact of the matter is that not all WILL be saved. We have our choice. But there will come a day when every knee shall bow and every tongue will confess, yet not all will be entering the kingdom of heaven.
I have known homosexuals who got saved and now have ministries to reach that crowd. So although the Bible says that God ‘gave them over to a reprobate mind’ I find no where in scripture that says that a homosexual isn’t capable of getting saved.
And when does one decide at what point a person is a homosexual. Is it first when their minds make their choice, or when they act upon that thought and actually begin a physical relationship with the same gender?
Sin is sin. One abomination is the lying lip. Yet we all have lied and still have had the ability to trust Christ as our Saviour.
I don’t understand how anyone can justify this verse:
Leviticus 18:22, “Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.” and 20:13, “If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.”
This is where I believe AIDS is a consequence of their lifestyle. Not necessarily being put to death by mankind, although I know that was done in years passed, but that it’s a natural consequence of their choices.
Shauna, that is the difficulty I have. He has been criticized by most of evangelical Christianity, yet those outside point to him and those like him as what we all believe.
I just looked over Phelps information on their website and I want to gag. He took Baptist Doctrine to the extreme. What a shame for him. The signs held by children saying God hates the USA is ridiculous.
God hates ’sin’. He loves sinners, that’s why His own Son came to die for sinner’s sin. So we can be reconciled to Him. “While we were yet sinners Christ died for us” So the term Hate the Sin but love the sinner IS true and scriptural. We are commanded to be kind to one another, love your neighbor as thyself, and just take a few minutes to read about the Good Samaritan. We ARE to ‘be ye separate and come out from among them’ meaning do not have close fellowship with those who willingly and continue in sin. We are to TEACH about God and if we only teach about God to perfect and upright people then we missed the whole point of Jesus coming to be with us on Earth in the first place. He came to call the sinners to repentance.
Then once we trust Christ as our Saviour we are responsible to live a holy life and he said ‘If my people which are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek his face and turn from THEIR wicked ways’ Now He’s talking to US Christians. We all have wicked ways that we MUST bring before the Lord and ask for Him to purify us each day and surrender to the Holy Spirit so that the Fruit of the Spirit will be evident in our lives.
I feel like I’m going way off from the original article, yet by the comments left on your Blog Dana, I just felt like clarifying a few things. ;O)
JJ–I dug your comments out of the spam folder. If I missed one, let me know but the search didn’t pick up anything else.
To answer the question about lesser and greater sins, it is sort of a long standing disagreement among believers, so far as I can tell. It has been a long time since I read much of Dante, but this is what comes to mind:
Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
The problem is that God, being holy, expects perfection. We all fall short and thus all are in need of a savior. Christ’s expectation goes beyond even our actions but right to our hearts and our motivations:
Mat 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
…
Mat 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
(Actually all of Matthew chapter 5.)
We tend to sort sins, and in an earthly sense it is probably necessary. Things which hurt other people…murder, theft, etc. need to be controlled by civil law. But not every sin does, and that is what disturbs me about some of these groups.
I don’t believe in theocracy.
Another issue is though, how does the homeschooling community react to this? It’s not just Christians who get tarred by the same brush - it’s homeschoolers.Homeschooling Hints needs to be confronted and challenged by our community as well. We don’t need to look to Phelps when we’ve got one of our own spewing the same bile in our own backyard.
Many “progressive” Christians I know love to cite the story of the adulteress in John 8 to claim that Jesus wants us to be tolerant of homosexual acts. What these individuals always seem to overlook, however, is verse 11: “Go, therefore, and sin no more.”
Yes, we are all sinners and we have to strive against being overly judgmental towards others. All of us are in need of Christ’s forgiveness in some way or the other. But Jesus didn’t give the adulteress a free pass to continue doing whatever she felt like. She is called to reject her past sinful ways and to turn over a new leaf. He did indeed “love the sinner but hate the sin” even if that particular phrase is never used in the Gospels.
I watched about two minutes of that video and had to turn it off. So much hatred in the world, I have no time for it.
Wow it looks like you opened a can of worms.
I enjoyed your post and I was happy to see that when Pharyngula posted about the “terrifying, crazy Republican woman” it didn’t become an anti-homeschooling post and the commentators for the most part didn’t attack homeschoolers. Progress at last ~ they finally realize that homeschoolers all hold different views and the largest majority of homeschoolers would find this woman’s views repellent.
Honestly the nastiness the Fundamentalist Christians display tends to drive me away and make me ashamed to identify myself as a Christian.
I do think that homosexuals should be allowed to form some sort of civil union that would be legally recognized. It’s the right think to do for their families as many of them do have children. We also need to understand that when we send our children to public schools the child next to them may have homosexual parents and that child and his/her parents need to be treated with respect. No child should be made to feel ashamed of their parent or ridiculed for their parents choices. I think that is where the diversity teaching is coming from not from some ‘gay agenda to turn straight kids into homosexuals’.
“Can of worms.” That about describes it.
Regardless of one’s views, I think that ideally the homosexual shouldn’t ever fear for their physical safety from Christians. Christ came to seek the lost and save the sinner. Being told that a behavior is sinful may be annoying, but it isn’t the same as what the gentleman in the video is raving about, isn’t the same as saying that the bombing of a school would be “poetic justice” and isn’t the same as harassing, teasing and bullying other people.
I understand Mrs. C’s concerns about an agenda. The public schools teach all sorts of things we disagree with or in ways we disagree with. But I do wonder which came first. From what I can tell, the attackers in the Matthew Shepard case were not Christian or fundamentalist…just a couple of idiots…but that seemed to start the wave of “hate crime” legislation. And Phelps’ demonstrations there and his ridiculous attempt at building a monument did a lot to turn the shock at such an attack away from a couple of nuts to a fringe religious group.
And suddenly “Christianity” is synonymous with hate for a lot of people who were as shocked by the attack as anyone else, regardless of what the original motives were, and just as readily condemn such acts of violence.
I was glad they didn’t turn on homeschoolers as well.
As a Catholic christian, I take great offense to the comments of Shirley. The misconceptions she has about the tenants of the Catholic faith are all wrong and poorly researched. I welcome a civilized discussion to address her concerns and point her to the truth. My church doesn’t insult or criticize you or generalize your faith or those who are non-Catholic. How is your message conveying the christian unity that Christ wanted for all of us?
As for the video and the other views on homosexuality: I find that yelling, insulting type of preaching to be a turn-off. I agree with the other commentors that these types of sins will not accurately be addressed in such a tone or message.
It’s a strange place trying to balance speaking the truth without judging someone else for their sins. And yet, as Christians, that is precisely what God calls us to do. With His help and grace alone.
Holly, unfortunately, I think that is generally how members of her congregation address those they disagree with. It isn’t a very terribly convincing approach, is it?
Shrilly Phelps-Roper said:
“No raping priests.”
Alright, I’ll try to stop raping any more priests
Good for your, scatty. I’m glad something good came of this discussion.
Holly (the Catholic) said:”My church doesn’t insult or criticize you or generalize your faith or those who are non-Catholic.”
Umm…well, actually, yes it does. I am Episcopalian and I was once told by a Roman Catholic monk that I was going to hell. I have also attended a Catholic mass during which the priest’s homily was about how all non-Catholic’s were going to hell. To them I am damned. That is why my former Catholic alter-boy husband and I tithe elsewhere.
I don’t mean this as a slam against your religion, however after reading your comment, I felt compelled to relate my unfortunate Roman Catholic experience. Please have a lovely weekend.
One of your commentors said, “God hates them for that.”
I don’t know what God she believes in and worships, but the God I believe in is incapable of hating. Hate is of the darkness and where God is, there is no darkness.
I also don’t think it is my job or anyone’s job for that matter, to decide what God likes or doesn’t like. Our job, as dictated, by Christ, is to love.
Some humans are harder to love than others, but if we have the Spirit within us, then loving comes from the Spirit and not of anything I can ever humanly do.
I don’t address this as an “issue” with my kids. I feel that all humans should be treated as equal and to single someone out because of the way they live their lives is to plant the seed of hate and prejudice.
I’m going to say that I accept criticism of all lifestyles, including my own. I am against the so-called “hate speech” laws. I don’t see calling homosexuality sinful much different than I see calling Christianity a lie or Christians deluded freaks worshiping sky fairies.
We live in a free country and should be free to express these ideas, and free to try to convert others to those beliefs, be they religious or not.
Then there is how we should go about this. For Fred Phelps to take his gang of followers to KU to shout at a demonstration is probably protected under the 1st Amendment. I wouldn’t call the police to have them removed, but as a Christian, I would ask them to please rethink how they address this issue. And, since they seem unwilling, do what most of Christianity has done and separate myself from any identification with them.
Some of these people cross some serious lines, however, which goes well-beyond being annoying and counterproductive. The state does have an interest and responsibility in protecting the physical safety of its citizens and when threats are made, they need to be taken seriously.
There’s a lot of misunderstanding out there (even among Catholic priests who really ought to know better) about the Catholic Church’s position on other Christian denominations. The Catholic Church recognizes the validity of baptisms performed in other Christian denominations such as Episcopalianism. That baptized person has the same hope of salvation through Christ as any Catholic. However, the Catholic Church’s position is that it alone has the Fullness of the Truth and that the other Christian denominations are deficient in certain respects. The hope is that someday our “separated brethren in Christ” will return to full communion with the Catholic Church.
Protestant Christians may very well take issue with that position (which is their prerogative), but it’s a far cry from saying that Catholics believe all non-Catholics will go to hell.
I think this:
However, the Catholic Church’s position is that it alone has the Fullness of the Truth and that the other Christian denominations are deficient in certain respects. The hope is that someday our “separated brethren in Christ” will return to full communion with the Catholic Church.
Kinda applies to all of us. After all, if I didn’t think my particular view alone held the “Fullness of Truth,” I wouldn’t hold it.
I’m reminded of something that C. S. Lewis said, that it is easy to be repulsed by a sin toward which we aren’t tempted.
As a non-Christian, I just thought chime in and correct the assumption that non-believers give too much weight to Phelps and “Terrifying, Crazy Republican Woman.” Of course, we understand that they (like the Deists who founded this country) don’t represent the majority of Christians today. Of course, there’s a difference between saying that homosexuals deserve death and homosexuals die from AIDS as a “consequence of their lifestyle”… okay,… bad example.
I can certainly understand why Christians would want to disassociate with Phelps and co., but working actively and enthusiastically to assign second-class status to people w/whom one “judges,” is what it is. Whether expressed with a smile and an upkicked leg or a raised fist. Personally, I am far more disturbed by the festive “Yes on 8″ romps going on at intersections, minutes from my home. They actually remind me of the midnight celebrations that go on outside penitentiary walls when death-row inmates are executed (which I’ve always hated). I fit a pit in my stomach as I drive by the “Yes on 8″ revelers. I’ve never seen anything like it before. I will remember it for as long as I live.
Thank you for commenting, Lynn. I don’t think that all non-believers see us all the same, so I’m sorry if I said something that seemed that way. I just think that when crazies speak, it sets off more discomfort than it needs to.
And what I said was that there is a difference between saying that homosexuals deserve death and saying their lifestyle is a sin. Just as there is a difference between saying that Christianity should be outlawed and parents shouldn’t be allowed to teach their faith to their own children and saying that Christianity is false.
My beliefs are called something very similar to sinful every day. It doesn’t bother me until people start talking about outlawing my beliefs or regulating my relationship with my children out of fear of my beliefs.
I don’t think I even want to get into Proposition 8. I would seriously just like to see the conversation focused elsewhere.
To be a little clearer, when I advocate for limited government, it is in this area as well. I don’t think laws save souls and I have a hard time getting too worked up about people choosing a lifestyle I disagree with so long as they aren’t hurting anyone else.
That’s just me. Maybe I’ve been caught in the middle of a few too many verbal stonings.
Sorry, I was tired when I commented and didn’t mean to speak for all non-believers. Yes, the crazies in every group hurt more than they help by perpetuating the worst stereotypes.
And, for some reason, I thought your post was an indirect reference to Prop 8. (Maybe I’m too California-centric these days.) I was trying to show an example of how anti-homosexual messages expressed “in love” aren’t perceived that way. In fact, they’re almost more insulting, in a way that’s hard to explain.
I picked up the homosexuals die from AIDS as a “consequence of their lifestyle” from a comment above (not yours). I used it because it’s a commonly made argument, yet doesn’t seem to be all that different from saying that homosexuals deserve death.
While I would put BJU in the crazy column, many homeschoolers use the curriculum: “the Bible does teach that diseases that result from sexual impurity are part of God’s punishment of sin (Rom. 1:27). Such punishment is in fact evidence of God’s grace. It allows the sinner to experience the offensiveness of his sin and points him to the need for a Savior - “the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world” (John 1:29). Bob Jones Publishers, Biology for Christian Schools (pgs 779-80). AIDS is a special gift that God gives to homosexuals?
I was also responding, in part, to scripture verses cited in comments that call on believers to treat their “enemies” (from comments above) in a loving manner (whether in obedience to scripture or the hope of converting the enemy). While not every believer uses the word “enemy” to refer to homosexuals (or atheists such as myself, my husband, my daughter), when homosexuals are wrongly portrayed as depraved, pedophile-like individuals intent on “indoctrinating” (from a comment above) and corrupting innocent children, a climate is created in which young men like Matthew Shepherd are seen as less than human and deserving of “a lesson.”
Someone here mentioned that it’s hard to “balance truth and love.” When “truth” is “If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them,” yeah, balancing that with real love (not obedient love, not useful love) is hard. I’ve never been impressed with arguments that try to reconcile the two, which is, frankly, one of the many reasons I am no longer a Christian.
I’m still tired; hopefully I was more clear this time.
And, I’m sorry this is so long.
Nope. Nothing to do with CA. I was only responding to the rather intense lady who posted this on her blog.
No one likes me. Fred Phelps linked to me from his site the name of which I shall not repeat accusing me of being a “weirdo and a pervert whose parents obviously hated [me].”
And I see what you are saying, but don’t read it nearly as intensely. There are consequences to behaviors, good and bad, which is how I tend to view it, but I know next to nothing about BJU and other curricula out there. This isn’t one of my “issues.”
I just think that Phelps is a loon.
If it cheers you up any, I’ll bet he hates me more than you
Lots more. Should I stop by his site and introduce myself?
Have you ever read Phelps’ adult son’s story? http://www.ubyssey.ca/?p=5624 I’m not a psychiatrist or anything but… yikes. In fact, I’d be alarmed if someone like him liked me :O
Have a good week.
Some insults come as compliments.
And thanks for the link. I’d heard some things, but I can’t read about them for long. It sickens me.
The stupid… it burns!