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	<title>Comments on: Where is their mother?!</title>
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	<description>If the foundations be destroyed, what shall the righteous do? --Psalm 11:3</description>
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		<title>By: Deana (The Frugal Homeschooling Mom)</title>
		<link>http://principleddiscovery.com/2009/10/20/where-is-their-mother/comment-page-1/#comment-1103904</link>
		<dc:creator>Deana (The Frugal Homeschooling Mom)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Oct 2009 18:36:43 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>It&#039;s funny you talked about this.  I was just discussing this same subject with my friend the other day.  Where is the mother in Max and Ruby?

It&#039;s funny, though - as a 6th grade Language Arts teacher in the public schools, I was once at a teacher&#039;s training about middle-schoolers preferences for reading material.  I remember learning that one of the top requirements for literature that&#039;s &quot;attractive&quot; to middle-schoolers is a story that has minimal parental involvement.  It&#039;s definitely a trend.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s funny you talked about this.  I was just discussing this same subject with my friend the other day.  Where is the mother in Max and Ruby?</p>
<p>It&#8217;s funny, though &#8211; as a 6th grade Language Arts teacher in the public schools, I was once at a teacher&#8217;s training about middle-schoolers preferences for reading material.  I remember learning that one of the top requirements for literature that&#8217;s &#8220;attractive&#8221; to middle-schoolers is a story that has minimal parental involvement.  It&#8217;s definitely a trend.</p>
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		<title>By: Rose</title>
		<link>http://principleddiscovery.com/2009/10/20/where-is-their-mother/comment-page-1/#comment-1102332</link>
		<dc:creator>Rose</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Oct 2009 05:15:02 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>You can find moms of a sort in the toy aisle at the store. Barbie is there in all her incarnations and &quot;family&quot; sets are there with moms and kids, but few, very few daddies make the family sets.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You can find moms of a sort in the toy aisle at the store. Barbie is there in all her incarnations and &#8220;family&#8221; sets are there with moms and kids, but few, very few daddies make the family sets.</p>
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		<title>By: JJ Ross</title>
		<link>http://principleddiscovery.com/2009/10/20/where-is-their-mother/comment-page-1/#comment-1102299</link>
		<dc:creator>JJ Ross</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Oct 2009 18:35:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://principleddiscovery.com/?p=1260#comment-1102299</guid>
		<description>VERY interesting!  :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>VERY interesting!  <img src='http://principleddiscovery.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Dana</title>
		<link>http://principleddiscovery.com/2009/10/20/where-is-their-mother/comment-page-1/#comment-1102295</link>
		<dc:creator>Dana</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Oct 2009 16:33:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://principleddiscovery.com/?p=1260#comment-1102295</guid>
		<description>OK, and THIS was interesting.  At the end of that previous link, we find that allied commanders banned the publication of Grimm&#039;s fairy tales because they thought it contributed to Nazi savagery.  I wonder what it was like for them to have discovered just how violent the originals were as opposed to the watered down Disney versions we&#039;re accustomed to?

Anyway, &lt;a href=&quot;http://features.csmonitor.com/books/2009/01/05/are-fairy-tales-bad-for-children/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;The Christian Science Monitor&lt;/a&gt; compares a list of top ten children&#039;s bedtime stories to a list of the top ten fairy tales which are not read as often.  

And I&#039;m wondering about the causes and effects of setting aside Snow White in favor of The Very Hungry Caterpillar.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK, and THIS was interesting.  At the end of that previous link, we find that allied commanders banned the publication of Grimm&#8217;s fairy tales because they thought it contributed to Nazi savagery.  I wonder what it was like for them to have discovered just how violent the originals were as opposed to the watered down Disney versions we&#8217;re accustomed to?</p>
<p>Anyway, <a href="http://features.csmonitor.com/books/2009/01/05/are-fairy-tales-bad-for-children/" rel="nofollow">The Christian Science Monitor</a> compares a list of top ten children&#8217;s bedtime stories to a list of the top ten fairy tales which are not read as often.  </p>
<p>And I&#8217;m wondering about the causes and effects of setting aside Snow White in favor of The Very Hungry Caterpillar.</p>
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		<title>By: Dana</title>
		<link>http://principleddiscovery.com/2009/10/20/where-is-their-mother/comment-page-1/#comment-1102294</link>
		<dc:creator>Dana</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Oct 2009 16:21:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://principleddiscovery.com/?p=1260#comment-1102294</guid>
		<description>There was also a decidedly political side to the collection, as the Grimms sought to demonstrate a cultural unity through the similar tellings of these stories.  They used this to further the idea of Germany as a single nation and wanted the various principalities to unite.

At any rate, this is an interesting read, from &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.kirjasto.sci.fi/jgrimm.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Books and Writers&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There was also a decidedly political side to the collection, as the Grimms sought to demonstrate a cultural unity through the similar tellings of these stories.  They used this to further the idea of Germany as a single nation and wanted the various principalities to unite.</p>
<p>At any rate, this is an interesting read, from <a href="http://www.kirjasto.sci.fi/jgrimm.htm" rel="nofollow">Books and Writers</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Dana</title>
		<link>http://principleddiscovery.com/2009/10/20/where-is-their-mother/comment-page-1/#comment-1102293</link>
		<dc:creator>Dana</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Oct 2009 16:13:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://principleddiscovery.com/?p=1260#comment-1102293</guid>
		<description>Interesting...but I&#039;m not so sure the Brothers Grimm had much to do with infusing stories with Christian piety.  They were linguists and social historians, searching in fairy tales for a pre-Christian ethos which they believed was preserved as a sort of collective conscience within the fairy tale.

It actually seems to be the subsequent popularity of fairy tales that sanitized them and adapted them to suit a broader audience beyond the backwoods where the Grimm brothers were collecting them.  It turned from a semi-scientific study to one driven by editors and publishers who knew there was money to be made.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting&#8230;but I&#8217;m not so sure the Brothers Grimm had much to do with infusing stories with Christian piety.  They were linguists and social historians, searching in fairy tales for a pre-Christian ethos which they believed was preserved as a sort of collective conscience within the fairy tale.</p>
<p>It actually seems to be the subsequent popularity of fairy tales that sanitized them and adapted them to suit a broader audience beyond the backwoods where the Grimm brothers were collecting them.  It turned from a semi-scientific study to one driven by editors and publishers who knew there was money to be made.</p>
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		<title>By: JJ Ross</title>
		<link>http://principleddiscovery.com/2009/10/20/where-is-their-mother/comment-page-1/#comment-1102292</link>
		<dc:creator>JJ Ross</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Oct 2009 15:41:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://principleddiscovery.com/?p=1260#comment-1102292</guid>
		<description>And check this out!

Pg 23 - we imagine the story being told through the child&#039;s eyes but remember, it was being told TO the child traditionally, not a story created BY the child.  So who is telling it?  Why, often it&#039;s the &quot;real mother&quot; putting her own story into the narrative voice and thus into the child! Or stranger yet, it is the older crone (offering herself as a sort of fairy godmother to the child?) or even a stepmother (not trying to scare the child but again, offering herself as the good mom figure against a frightening world in which the child has no mother at all.)

Another point is that &quot;marriage&quot; in these stories is so often both good and bad, one union the cause of misery for the children and then another union their escape.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And check this out!</p>
<p>Pg 23 &#8211; we imagine the story being told through the child&#8217;s eyes but remember, it was being told TO the child traditionally, not a story created BY the child.  So who is telling it?  Why, often it&#8217;s the &#8220;real mother&#8221; putting her own story into the narrative voice and thus into the child! Or stranger yet, it is the older crone (offering herself as a sort of fairy godmother to the child?) or even a stepmother (not trying to scare the child but again, offering herself as the good mom figure against a frightening world in which the child has no mother at all.)</p>
<p>Another point is that &#8220;marriage&#8221; in these stories is so often both good and bad, one union the cause of misery for the children and then another union their escape.</p>
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		<title>By: JJ Ross</title>
		<link>http://principleddiscovery.com/2009/10/20/where-is-their-mother/comment-page-1/#comment-1102291</link>
		<dc:creator>JJ Ross</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Oct 2009 15:02:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://principleddiscovery.com/?p=1260#comment-1102291</guid>
		<description>I always thought it was about the child&#039;s mind and view of starring in his or her own story too, needing to grow apart and be heroic etc, but no! Nor was this all to destroy the ideal family and mother, but rather to preserve them in some separate perfect (and pious) fantasy where good is rewarded by not having to deal with the harsh reality! This is so interesting --

&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.amazon.com/absent-mother-women-against-wives/dp/9065503439/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;
The absent mother, or women against women&lt;/a&gt; in the old wives tale: Lecture delivered at the Erasmus University Rotterdam on January 18, 1991
by Marina Warner

I did the little Google search inside the book thing, and read a few pages around 28-30. Here&#039;s the gist:

Fairy tales were the television and pornography of their day, the life-load-lightening trash of pre-literate people. . . .fairy tales &quot;repeat the child&#039;s hankering after nobler, richer, altogether better origins, the fantasy of being a prince or princess in disguise . . .&quot; the mother &quot;necessarily dies before the story begins to make way for the narrative&#039;s malevolent catalysts&quot; and in the case of the Brothers Grimm e.g., drafted and redrafted along &quot;increasingly pious lines. . .to infuse Christian fervor, emboldening the strokes of the plot, meting out penalties to the wicked and rewards to the just and defining their separate characteristics along even broader lines, to conform with Christian and social values.&quot;

Thus the disappearance of the biological mother from such harsh material -- to sustain their feminine ideal of unsullied loving motherhood, actual mothers had to disappear and be no part of the unpleasantness. In the face of harsh and dangerous reality for families, their idea of protecting and preserving ideals of motherhood and family, was to literally banish it!

Reading this made me picture collectible doll mothers preserved up on a high shelf from real imperfect children who would love them (to death) like the Velveteen Rabbit and the Skin Horse if they were allowed to really be there to love the children back . . .</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I always thought it was about the child&#8217;s mind and view of starring in his or her own story too, needing to grow apart and be heroic etc, but no! Nor was this all to destroy the ideal family and mother, but rather to preserve them in some separate perfect (and pious) fantasy where good is rewarded by not having to deal with the harsh reality! This is so interesting &#8211;</p>
<p><a href="http://www.amazon.com/absent-mother-women-against-wives/dp/9065503439/" rel="nofollow"><br />
The absent mother, or women against women</a> in the old wives tale: Lecture delivered at the Erasmus University Rotterdam on January 18, 1991<br />
by Marina Warner</p>
<p>I did the little Google search inside the book thing, and read a few pages around 28-30. Here&#8217;s the gist:</p>
<p>Fairy tales were the television and pornography of their day, the life-load-lightening trash of pre-literate people. . . .fairy tales &#8220;repeat the child&#8217;s hankering after nobler, richer, altogether better origins, the fantasy of being a prince or princess in disguise . . .&#8221; the mother &#8220;necessarily dies before the story begins to make way for the narrative&#8217;s malevolent catalysts&#8221; and in the case of the Brothers Grimm e.g., drafted and redrafted along &#8220;increasingly pious lines. . .to infuse Christian fervor, emboldening the strokes of the plot, meting out penalties to the wicked and rewards to the just and defining their separate characteristics along even broader lines, to conform with Christian and social values.&#8221;</p>
<p>Thus the disappearance of the biological mother from such harsh material &#8212; to sustain their feminine ideal of unsullied loving motherhood, actual mothers had to disappear and be no part of the unpleasantness. In the face of harsh and dangerous reality for families, their idea of protecting and preserving ideals of motherhood and family, was to literally banish it!</p>
<p>Reading this made me picture collectible doll mothers preserved up on a high shelf from real imperfect children who would love them (to death) like the Velveteen Rabbit and the Skin Horse if they were allowed to really be there to love the children back . . .</p>
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		<title>By: Dana</title>
		<link>http://principleddiscovery.com/2009/10/20/where-is-their-mother/comment-page-1/#comment-1102288</link>
		<dc:creator>Dana</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Oct 2009 14:43:16 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Ooh, I hadn&#039;t thought about the background children. If they take on too much of the story, it becomes a children&#039;s show.  Interesting thought to explore, thank you!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ooh, I hadn&#8217;t thought about the background children. If they take on too much of the story, it becomes a children&#8217;s show.  Interesting thought to explore, thank you!</p>
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		<title>By: Eva</title>
		<link>http://principleddiscovery.com/2009/10/20/where-is-their-mother/comment-page-1/#comment-1102287</link>
		<dc:creator>Eva</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Oct 2009 14:40:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://principleddiscovery.com/?p=1260#comment-1102287</guid>
		<description>I always figured that the mothers were missing in some stories, because in a child&#039;s mind, a good mother is often taken for granted.  I grew up in a lovely stable home, but to be quite honest, my mother didn&#039;t figure prominently in my thoughts or memories, precisely because she was always there, working away, taking care of things.  Kind of like the appliances. As I have gotten older, I appreciate my wonderful mother quite a bit, but when I was young she really didn&#039;t figure much in my and my brother&#039;s adventures.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I always figured that the mothers were missing in some stories, because in a child&#8217;s mind, a good mother is often taken for granted.  I grew up in a lovely stable home, but to be quite honest, my mother didn&#8217;t figure prominently in my thoughts or memories, precisely because she was always there, working away, taking care of things.  Kind of like the appliances. As I have gotten older, I appreciate my wonderful mother quite a bit, but when I was young she really didn&#8217;t figure much in my and my brother&#8217;s adventures.</p>
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